# Why were so many expeditions initiated for spices ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 10, 2019, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818 "2019-07-10T03:05:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/1 "2019-07-10T03:05:00Z")
If I understand correctly, one of the drivers of the European Age of discovery was to find spices. The Arabs/Turks dominated the trade and the Europeans wanted direct access to spices. But what was so special about spices that made them so valuable ? (As a person of Indian origin, I have found Europeans to use very little spices in their dishes !!) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/2 "2019-07-10T03:20:27Z")
Of course, the basic factor was their taste. The taste was different from spices available in Europe and they appealed to many people. But the reason they were so valuable was that you only needed small amounts to flavor a dish. They didn’t weigh much compared to say gold, ivory, or even silk, so you could ship a large amount on each voyage. It’s often alleged that spices were used to disguise the taste of rotting meat in the time before refrigeration. However, I don’t think that’s likely as a primary use. This may have been true for black pepper but spices like cinnamon and nutmeg may have sometimes been used for meat but were more frequently used with pastries and deserts. Bear in mind that spices were a luxury item, affordable only to royalty and the wealthy. Part of their appeal, as with other luxury items such as gold and rich fabrics, was signaling your wealth and status. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/3 "2019-07-10T03:23:41Z")
We use different spices than Indian cuisine, and part of the reason we use different spices, and part of the reason we use those spices you do in different amounts is precisely historical availability. For some of us, another reason is that your spices make us sick while ours do not; I wouldn’t be surprised if that also worked the other way around. As for what made them valuable: limited sources and it is something of which a small amount goes a long way (worth by volume was and is huge). If I make some potatoes Rioja style the spices and herbs are the lowest element by volume, but without them it would just be potatoes boiled in water with a pinch of salt, talk about boring. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/4 "2019-07-10T03:30:21Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > For some of us, another reason is that your spices make us sick while ours do not; I wouldn’t be surprised if that also worked the other way around. Which ones would those be? I have never heard of this. I certainly have never been made sick by spices from India or the Far East, or any other spice. (The worst effect I’ve had is from chilis, which aren’t from there.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/5 "2019-07-10T03:33:56Z")
And there’s really no substitute for the unique flavor of a particular spice (at least in the days before chemically synthesized flavors). Also, if you live in a region with a completely different climate then it’s not feasible to grow the desired spices locally in sufficient quantities. Result: the overseas spice market has you by the short ‘n’ curlies. > [@am77494](#): > > (As a person of Indian origin, I have found Europeans to use very little spices in their dishes !!) Nowadays, yeah, but [it didn’t used to be that way](https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/03/26/394339284/how-snobbery-helped-take-the-spice-out-of-european-cooking). > [@](#): > > How Snobbery Helped Take The Spice Out Of European Cooking > > […] this notion of layering many contrasting flavors and spices isn’t unique to Indian cooking. > > In fact, most of the world’s cuisines tend to follow that principle, says Tulasi Srinivas, an anthropologist at Emerson University who studies food and globalization. And up until the mid-1600s, European cuisine was the same way. > > In medieval Europe, those who could afford to do so would generously season their stews with saffron, cinnamon, cloves and ginger. Sugar was ubiquitous in savory dishes. And haute European cuisine, until the mid-1600s, was defined by its use of complex, contrasting flavors. > > “The real question, then, is why the wealthy, powerful West — with unprecedented access to spices from its colonies — became so fixated on this singular understanding of flavor,” Srinivas says. > > The answer, it turns out, has just as much to do with economics, politics and religion as it does taste. > > Back in the Middle Ages, spices were really expensive, which meant that only the upper class could afford them. But things started to change as Europeans began colonizing parts of India and the Americas. […] > > Serving richly spiced stews was no longer a status symbol for Europe’s wealthiest families — even the middle classes could afford to spice up their grub. “So the elite recoiled from the increasing popularity of spices,” Ray says. “They moved on to an aesthetic theory of taste. Rather than infusing food with spice, they said things should taste like themselves. Meat should taste like meat, and anything you add only serves to intensify the existing flavors.” > > The shift began in France, in the mid-1600s, adds Paul Freedman, a professor of history at Yale University. “It was a way to also show off the wealth of the French provinces,” Freedman says. > > The rest of Europe soon adopted this new style. “It’s a redefinition of what elegant is,” Freedman says. “It’s sort of like — in fashion — for a while having more frills, more jewelry was fashionable. But then someone said that a basic black dress with some pearls is much better.” Of course, by the time European trendsetters started considering spice use a bit declassee, they had found out about other commodities like Indian muslins and Chinese porcelain, so trade with the East continued to thrive. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/6 "2019-07-10T03:37:29Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Of course, the basic factor was their taste. The taste was different from spices available in Europe and they appealed to many people…,. I understand that there were foodies back then just as there are now. But these expeditions were almost on a scale of war and people were risking life and limb just to enhance the flavor of their food ? I can understand expeditions for fur (clothing) or better disease fighting medicine or better weapons or tools or ships but no : it is spices. And all this with the backdrop of the many wars going on in Europe. Anyways, if one were to give a rough estimate, what would a pound of black pepper be worth in Europe in the 15th century in terms of 2019 dollars ? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/7 "2019-07-10T03:42:53Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > I understand that there were foodies back then just as there are now. But these expeditions were almost on a scale of war and people were risking life and limb just to enhance the flavor of their food ? No, people were risking life and limb to make money. I very much doubt that any individual was taking a hazardous ocean voyage of several months just because they wanted to lay hands on some pepper. But wealthy individuals back home were very willing to spend their surplus cash on pepper, and other spices. And non-wealthy individuals hauled ass across the ocean to get in on some of that sweet pepper profit. (And wealthy individuals invested in spice expeditions because they tended to be profitable and make the wealthy individuals more wealthy.) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/8 "2019-07-10T03:47:23Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Which ones would those be? I have never heard of this. I certainly have never been made sick by spices from India or the Far East, or any other spice. (The worst effect I’ve had is from chilis, which aren’t from there.) For me, curcuma (a very recent arrival to Spain) and mustard (heavily used by our northern neighbors, not so much south of the Pyrenees) are very strong asthma triggers. Both of them are common allergens, it’s not just me. Makes going to an Indian restaurant a bit complicated, specially since too often they don’t comply with regs about being able to give you the complete list of ingredients. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/9 "2019-07-10T03:53:17Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Anyways, if one were to give a rough estimate, what would a pound of black pepper be worth in Europe in the 15th century in terms of 2019 dollars ? [More than two day’s wages of a carpenter or mason per pound](https://www.economics.utoronto.ca/munro5/SPICES1.htm). (Cloves were more than 4 day’s pay.) ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/10 "2019-07-10T03:54:15Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nowadays, yeah, but [it didn’t used to be that way](https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/03/26/394339284/how-snobbery-helped-take-the-spice-out-of-european-cooking)… Thank you for the nice link. That explains why spices are minimal in modern European cuisine. It’s hard to imagine that a 15th century royal banquet was teeming with spices but thanks for the information. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/11 "2019-07-10T04:00:28Z")
Many spices were also believed, correctly or not, to have medicinal properties, especially if they had a strong taste and/or smell. The two that come to mind immediately are turmeric and asafetida; the latter was sometimes used in face masks during the Black Plague. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/12 "2019-07-10T04:08:33Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Anyways, if one were to give a rough estimate, what would a pound of black pepper be worth in Europe in the 15th century in terms of 2019 dollars ? Hmm, I can do you [similar information from a few centuries earlier in terms of contemporary cost of living](https://www.mccormickscienceinstitute.com/resources/history-of-spices): > [@](#): > > In the Early part of the middle ages (before the Crusades), Asian Spices in Europe were costly and mainly used by the wealthy. A pound of saffron cost the same as a horse; a pound of ginger, as much as a sheep; 2 pounds of mace as much as a cow. A German price table of 1393 lists a pound of nutmeg as worth 7 fat oxen. > > Pepper, as well as other spices and herbs, was commonly used as a monetary source. Eastern Europeans paid 10 pounds of pepper in order to gain access to trading with London merchants. Pepper was [about 50 ducats a cargo](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2115514?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents) in the mid-15th century in Europe. A cargo is about 400 pounds, so a pound of pepper was one-eighth of a ducat or fifteen silver pennies. According to the [utterly kick-ass historical currency converter at the UK National Archives website](http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency-converter), that’s equivalent to nearly 40 pounds sterling in 2017 currency, or on the order of $50 in modern US money. At the time, it was about two days’ wages for a skilled tradesman. (ETA: as **Darren Garrison** independently found from a different source, which is cool!) ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/13 "2019-07-10T04:14:49Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > For me, curcuma (a very recent arrival to Spain) … Are you sure about that ? > **[Turmeric | alimentarium](https://www.alimentarium.org/en/fact-sheet/turmeric)** > > A ‘multipurpose’ perennial grown in intertropical regions, turmeric has been an important part of Asian sociocultural life for centuries. It can be used as a colouring agent, a preservative, a spice or a remedy in Ayurvedic and natural medicine. It... The above website says turmeric or curcuma was first introduced in Spain by the Arabs and for the longest time , its use was limited to Spain amongst all European countries. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/14 "2019-07-10T04:15:19Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > For me, curcuma (a very recent arrival to Spain) and mustard (heavily used by our northern neighbors, not so much south of the Pyrenees) are very strong asthma triggers. Both of them are common allergens, it’s not just me. Makes going to an Indian restaurant a bit complicated, specially since too often they don’t comply with regs about being able to give you the complete list of ingredients. That just mean it makes _you_ sick, not Europeans in general. If by curcuma you mean turmeric, that surprises me, since it is commonly used in paella. Whenever turmeric reached Europe, it has been consumed by Europeans for centuries in India, and still is used widely by them today, without ill effects. If you don’t mean turmeric, then it’s not that common a spice. Mustard was first developed as a condiment by the Romans, and of course is one of the very most common spices used today. What evidence is there that either of these spices are more likely to make Europeans sick than Indians? Curry has become virtually a national dish in the UK; it would not be so if many Britons were made sick by Indian spices. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/15 "2019-07-10T04:17:07Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > For me, curcuma (a very recent arrival to Spain) and mustard (heavily used by our northern neighbors, not so much south of the Pyrenees) are very strong asthma triggers. Both of them are common allergens, it’s not just me. But they’re common allergens [everywhere mustard is used, especially India](https://www.healthline.com/health/mustard-allergy#whos-allergic). So it’s not as though Indians have some kind of natural immunity to mustard allergy while Europeans are more vulnerable to it. In fact, the [most common food allergens in India are milk, peanuts, eggs and fish](http://www.scind.org/1237/Health/food-allergy-top-12-food-allergens-in-india.html), all of which are very widely consumed there. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/16 "2019-07-10T04:20:22Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > I understand that there were foodies back then just as there are now. But these expeditions were almost on a scale of war and people were risking life and limb just to enhance the flavor of their food ? I can understand expeditions for fur (clothing) or better disease fighting medicine or better weapons or tools or ships but no : it is spices. And all this with the backdrop of the many wars going on in Europe. I think what you’re missing is that spices were not just valued for their taste, but as status symbols. Jewels, gold, and ivory were not valued for utilitarian reasons but because they were rare and thus their possession indicated status. Likewise people traded for fragrant woods and incense that had little practical value. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/17 "2019-07-10T04:21:33Z")
A pound of saffron [_still_ costs around as much as a horse](https://www.thedailybeast.com/in-search-of-the-dollar10000-spice). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/18 "2019-07-10T04:38:51Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > It’s hard to imagine that a 15th century royal banquet was teeming with spices Allow me to [assist your imagination](http://www.medievalcuisine.com/Euriol/my-recipes/recipes-by-time-period/15th-century) with contemporary recipes such as “Beef y-Stywyd” containing cinnamon, cloves,\* mace, cubeb pepper, grains of paradise (a cardamom relative), and saffron; “Gyngerbrede” containing saffron, black pepper, cinnamon, cloves and sandalwood (but, oddly enough, not ginger); “Sauce Gamelyne” containing cinnamon, ginger, cloves and saffron; and dozens more. - I just realized that my own mother’s habitual practice of putting cloves in beef stew probably dates all the way back to this period. :eek: 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/19 "2019-07-10T04:40:35Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I think what you’re missing is that spices were not just valued for their taste, but as status symbols. Jewels, gold, and ivory were not valued for utilitarian reasons but because they were rare and thus their possession indicated status. Likewise people traded for fragrant woods and incense that had little practical value. Understood Colibri. It’s just hard for me to believe though because all the other items you listed (Jewels, Gold, Ivory) are non-perishables and are usually supply limited. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818/20 "2019-07-10T04:44:58Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > That just mean it makes _you_ sick, not Europeans in general. I said “some” in my initial quote. > [@](#): > > If by curcuma you mean turmeric, that surprises me, since it is commonly used in paella. You’re lucky there are no Valencianos here. Turmeric is used in paella by the kind of foreigners who think that the yellow color must come from “paella spice blend”. Anybody who uses anything other than saffron is not cooking paella but payeya. It’s an even worse sin than using green peas. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-so-many-expeditions-initiated-for-spices/836818.md?page=2)