# Why were the Japanese so cruel in World War II? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034 "2010-12-22T02:36:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/201 "2010-12-28T01:32:05Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > You are correct, Sir. Obviously I make no sense at all. > > To you. Well, yes. That’s why I was asking for clarifications. Because you’re not making any sense to me. Still aren’t, for that matter. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/202 "2010-12-28T02:04:05Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Japan: they make horrible managers/leaders, because they only manage up, not down. What does that mean? > [@](#): > > There is no equivalent to Nazi Germany, and as silly as it is to try and determine which atrocity was ‘worse or better’ And you follow this with three long paragraphs detailing why the Holocaust was so much worse than other war atrocities. You make some good points but why call your attempt to distinguish different levels of human depravity, silly. I think its useful to recognize the relative depravity involved. Still I think once you reach high enough level of depravity, you max out on outrage. We shouldn’t go easier on the Japanese because their actions were demonstrably less depraved than the German actions. They both deserve maximum outrage. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/203 "2010-12-28T04:56:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Because you’re not making any sense to me. Don’t worry, that’s just a sign that you are possibly but not definitely an anti-Japanese racist. Why, the next thing you know you’ll be making lists of everybody in politics who you remember who “looks Japanese” to you (and picking up a few random Asians as collateral damage) and suggesting that they should be investigated due to their inherently untrustworthy nature. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/204 "2010-12-28T08:54:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > \ > What does that mean? It means any and all managing is done to appease the managers/leaders above them. It can mean anything from not reporting bad news (certainly not unique to Japan), to not looking out for your subordinates or believing that you are supposed to set an example for them. It also means that promotion is based almost exclusively on seniority and who didn’t ‘screw up’ rather than who was actually a good leader. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And you follow this with three long paragraphs detailing why the Holocaust was so much worse than other war atrocities. > > You make some good points but why call your attempt to distinguish different levels of human depravity, silly. I think its useful to recognize the relative depravity involved. > > Still I think once you reach high enough level of depravity, you max out on outrage. We shouldn’t go easier on the Japanese because their actions were demonstrably less depraved than the German actions. They both deserve maximum outrage. IMHO. Specifically my focus was to point out the _differences_, because I think sometimes people make the gross oversimplification of equating Japan’s wartime actions and Nazi Germany. I think it is silly to try and ‘measure’ atrocities - what is your barometer? If simply number of deaths, Mao Zedong or Stalin may well be at the top of the list, for example. But I don’t think it is silly to look at events in larger picture terms: Nazi Germany, in totality, was very different to WWII Japan’s soldiers atrocities, and understanding the specific conditions and reasons why such events occurred is important for trying to keep them from happening again. That and all such events, regardless of number of lives cost or who committed them, deserve maximum outrage goes without saying. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/205 "2010-12-28T16:44:41Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Not _quite_. My point all along has been that there’s nothing indigenous to The Japanese that made/makes them especially evil. That’s all. I don’t think anyone thinks that there is anything genetic. In fact one of the points made several times is how big a contrast there is with the behavior of the Japanese during their earlier war with Russia. I don’t think anyone here is trying to say that the cause was genetic. > [@](#): > > Facts is, depressing as it might be, that yes, everyday horrific things happen all over the world. Obviously there’s a matter of scale, thus a Gacy or a Dahmer won’t gather near the same amount of global outrage as the rampaging actions of an army at war. As far as understanding the causes in order to prevent them in the future, one can be hopeful yet remain a realist – again, although not on the scale of the Great Wars, you only need look around the globe to realize that there are acts of unspeakable cruelty going on as we speak. The Balkans, Congo, Rwanda, Iraq and NK to name but a few. Terrible things happened. But not always the same terrible things. Gacy and Dahmer did what they did because they were mentally ill. Do you think it is useful to study them and try and figure out how they became what they were and how to identify or even prevent future monsters? Or should we shrug our shoulders and say they were no worse than anyone else and we should just accept them? We can’t prevent everything, but we can to lessen the horror of the world. Why does it offend you so much that people want to discuss what factors made this specific set of atrocities possible? Is that we are not discussing every other set as well? Would it make sense to say that no one should fund research on earthquakes unless they give equal funding to hurricanes? The two are both natural disasters, but they are different. For example, I find it interesting that one possible point of divergence in Nazi vs. Imperial Japanese behavior is the scapegoat vs superiority factor. Both regimes focuses on their supposed inherent superiority. But Japanese culture was fairly homogeneous. For them the inferiors were all outside rather than mixed in like Germany. How much did that change the way things played out? > [@](#): > > As for your suggestion of a repetition of The Milgram Experiment under your provisos, I’d be interested as well. Knowledge vs peer pressure & authority. Would that I could venture a response…alas I can’t. It think it would show a marked decrease in the level of participants advancing into lethal levels. I base this on research into the effects that knowledge of marketing tactics has on their effectiveness. The more subjects understood about how advertising works, the less effective it was. > [@](#): > > BTW, have you watched The Experiment in either its original [German](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0250258/) version or the [American](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0997152/) remake? Based on The Stamford Prison Experiment, I think they give a pretty accurate account of the hive-mind mentality. > > TY I have not seen the movie, but I may add it to my Netflix queue. I have seen a documentary covering the experiments and the after effects (including how some participants kept going on their own after it was called off. ---
**Author:** ![soplatole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba8739/32.png) [@soplatole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soplatole)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/206 "2010-12-28T19:44:02Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > This thread is so full of strawmen it’s fucking insane. I hope I’m not one of the strawmen:( ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/207 "2010-12-28T23:43:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, yes. That’s why I was asking for clarifications. Because you’re not making any sense to me. > > Still aren’t, for that matter. > > 😕 Not that difficult really. Just another historical example of just how powerful the mix of nationalism, xenophobia and the emperor’s (substitute for any/all “divine” creatures, real or not) cult-like following – particularly upon the ruling Japanese armed forces – and you’ll get robot-like warriors for whom morality, as we generally understand it, becomes irrelevant in pursuit of The Higher Goal. Which is none other than the one set by their superiors as they interpret their so-called Higher Power. Deluded? No doubt. Part of the Human Condition? You betcha’ ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/208 "2010-12-29T03:52:42Z")
Ah, okay, I think I get it now. I thought you were quoting Orwell to describe the people posting in this thread. But you were quoting him to describe the Japanese in the first half of the 20th century. That’s where I was confused. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/209 "2010-12-29T11:37:49Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > That would make sense if the majority of the posts said ‘well their japs, they’ve always been that way, always will, that’s why we still have bases there.’ But that’s not how it’s been, the couple of posters that hinted at that were called out on it. Which posters hinted at that? ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/210 "2010-12-29T15:23:32Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Damuri Ajashi** , hell if I know. > > I’d like to see a cite for ANY of the [following](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre) being down to the Native Americans. Are you saying the Nanking Massacre was worse than what white settlers did to the Native Americans? Really? I just want to be sure I translated what you said correctly, because we’re talking about the fact that white settlers reduced the Native American population from 12-15 million in just one Carribbean region to under 300,000 _nationwide_ by the time they were done. That, sir, makes Nanking look like a street brawl and eclipses even Hitler. You want to first start with Christopher Columbus and the Taino population. You know, hacking kids to pieces and feeding them to dogs and what not. He started the fight by taking Taino as slaves, they retaliated, and he came back and wiped out 5 million Taino right off the bat. Hitler only did a little worse in his whole career than Christopher Columbus did. And many more genocidal maniacs followed him. > **[socyberty.com](http://socyberty.com/history/christopher-columbus-and-the-genocide-of-the-taino-nation/)** > [@](#): > > Defenders of Columbus argue that a large amount of the victims were killed by disease however they fail to recognize that most of these diseases were caused by poor living conditions in forced labour camps. Deprived of their crops and fields, many fell prey to dysentery and typhus, were worked to death or were left to starve to death. > > After his death his terrible legacy would live on, by 1514, a census showed only 22,000 Taino remained alive. By 1542 there were only 200 remaining and after they were considered extinct, as was becoming more and more the case throughout the Caribbean basin. > > In around fifty years Columbus and those that followed him had all but eliminated a population of around fifteen million people. This process was just the start and an estimated 100 million people were wiped out by Europeans in the so called ‘civilisation’ of the Western Hemisphere making the discovery of the New World the start of what was arguably the worst case of mass genocide in history. That’s right. Christopher Columbus, by himself, made Nanking look trivial. He made an entire people _extinct._ ---
**Author:** ![storyguide3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@storyguide3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyguide3)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/211 "2010-12-29T16:36:44Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Which posters hinted at that? Probably refers to: > [@Susanann](#): > > The Japanese were so cruel… because… we were not able to nuclearly prevent them from being cruel earlier than we were. > > If the US had not defeated Japan, the cruelties by the Japanese would never have stopped and they would be unending to this day. It may or may not be what she meant. Seeing as she also used the term “Japs” in other posts it left me wondering. I asked if she meant that the Japanese were predisposed to cruelty but I don’t think I got a response. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/212 "2010-12-29T19:18:26Z")
^ Pretty much. If that had been the way the whole thread was going, I’d have seen Redfury’s point. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/213 "2010-12-29T20:42:56Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > That and all such events, regardless of number of lives cost or who committed them, deserve maximum outrage goes without saying. That is part of the reason I don’t like the “well people have been doing horrible things for centuries” argument. We now possess the ability to exterminate ourselves. If the accounts that the Rape of Nanking was intentionally carried out to intimidate other Chinese cites to surrender, then how was our bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that much different? > **[Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki | Choice of targets](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Choice_of_targets)** > > In April 1945, Marshall asked Groves to nominate specific targets for bombing for final approval by himself and Stimson. Groves formed a Target Committee, chaired by himself, that included Farrell, Major John A. Derry, Colonel William P. Fisher, Joyce C. Stearns and David M. Dennison from the USAAF; and scientists John von Neumann, Robert R. Wilson and William Penney from the Manhattan Project. The Target Committee met in Washington on 27 April; at Los Alamos on 10 May, where it was able to talk ... It seems clear that the purpose of the bombing was to so vividly visit the horror of further conflict on the Japanese so that they would lose their taste for it. The thing that makes the Japanese and Nazis worse than the Americans is not what they did but why they did it. The Japanese and Germans were aggressors, to me that makes all the difference in the world. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/214 "2010-12-29T21:41:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > _…If the accounts that the Rape of Nanking was intentionally carried out to intimidate other Chinese cites to surrender, then how was our bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that much different?_ Is it? Mind you again, it’s not about some sort of moral equivalency, but rather war atrocities on their own. You can read both views here: [**Debate over the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki** i](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki) Personally, I’m undecided – though firmly on the side of The Allies. > [@](#): > > _It seems clear that the purpose of the bombing was to so vividly visit the horror of further conflict on the Japanese so that they would lose their taste for it._ Indeed. Which can be said of many atrocities committed in wars throughout history. > [@](#): > > _The thing that makes the Japanese and Nazis worse than the Americans is not what they did but why they did it. The Japanese and Germans were aggressors, to me that makes all the difference in the world._ Perhaps so. But letting your enemy dictate (excuse?) your own morals/ethics is hardly ideal in the greater scope of the advance of humanity in conflict-- as rightfully posed by **Strassia**. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/215 "2010-12-30T00:55:36Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Perhaps so. But letting your enemy dictate (excuse?) your own morals/ethics is hardly ideal in the greater scope of the advance of humanity in conflict-- as rightfully posed by **Strassia**. And yet…we did NOT do what the Japanese did. Unless you have proof otherwise? :dubious: (And YET AGAIN, “they did it too!” is not a valid argument) ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/216 "2010-12-30T06:41:52Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And yet…we did NOT do what the Japanese did. Unless you have proof otherwise? First, I gently suggest you go read up on Tuskegee. This lasted 40 years - into the 1970s, and some 25 years after a general treatment had become standard - and was only stopped after news of the ‘research’ was leaked to the press. Secondly, go and read up on other examples of [unethical biomedical research](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_experimentation_in_the_United_States)in the US. It has happened much more frequently in the past than most people know, and runs the gamut of radiation and chemical experiments to psychological, torture, and pharmaceutical experiments. Not surprisingly, almost all instances were by the CIA and/or military, or doctors/researchers. \*\*Damuri Ajashi \*\*tries to make the case that the ‘why’ behind the actions means what Germany/Japan did was ‘worse’ than what the US did. Flip that around: Japan, for example, was in the middle of a war. And I don’t think we can even imagine what those hellacious conditions would do to a person. The Tuskegee researchers can’t hardly use that as an excuse for treating poor black men as second-class citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/217 "2010-12-30T08:26:40Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > \*\*Damuri Ajashi \*\*tries to make the case that the ‘why’ behind the actions means what Germany/Japan did was ‘worse’ than what the US did. Flip that around: Japan, for example, was in the middle of a war… …that they started… ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/218 "2010-12-30T11:35:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > …that they started… Come back after you’ve read up on your history. It isn’t nearly as simple as that, I’m afraid. As has been said by others many times, Japan was merely doing what the US, France, the UK, and Russia had been doing - imperialist expansion. Japan’s primary interest was taking control of China’s natural resources, an area where US had been dominant. Note this quote from the American Ambassador to Japan, Joseph C. Grew: > [@](#): > > The American Government and people earnestly desire security, stability, and progress not only for themselves but for all other nations in every quarter of the world. But the new order in East Asia has appeared to include, among other things, depriving Americans of their long established rights in China, and to this the American people are opposed…American rights and interests in China are being impaired or destroyed by the policies and actions of the Japanese authorities in China Some say Japan’s biggest mistake was being late to the club of industrialized imperialist countries, and not being located in Europe. If the US hadn’t been upset at possibly losing control of its interests in China, WWII in Asia would have looked very very different. This of course has zero bearing on the actions and atrocities that actually occured in the war, of course. But to say that ‘Germany and Japan started the war’ is a gross oversimplification of the circumstances. If someone at school harasses and pesters and threatens someone who finally gets pisssed and punches the bully - who started the fight? I’m not necessarily equating the US/Europe with the bully here, merely pointing out that fights don’t start only when someone throws a punch. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/219 "2010-12-30T23:21:53Z")
None of that seems to be along the same scope as Nanjing. And again, “they/we did it too!” is not a fucking excuse. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034/220 "2010-12-31T00:12:46Z")
Even though Japan has changed so much from the WWII era, I’ve spoken with many Japanese who still hate the culture and it’s disregard for individuality and rights. The past 20 years seem to finally be making a difference there, but the memories linger on for many. Non-ethnic Japanese still face discrimination. Some still expect women to be subservient to men (one of my clients was a company owned by a Japanese man, he expected Japanese female engineers to stop their work to serve tea). The Japanese still only haltingly admit to their actions during WWII, and always whitewash the history. If this represents 65 years of change, I don’t find the brutality then all that surprising. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-japanese-so-cruel-in-world-war-ii/565034.md?page=12)