Why were the Japanese so cruel in World War II?

Agree with you on this, I think today when China/Korean picking on Japan it is not because of any direct memory, but rather passed on memory from secondary sources.

So here is the debate, which side is wrong in this, are China/Korean wrong because they are deliberately holding up the past? Or is Japan wrong for never acknowledged the past and continue to deny it until to this day?

I think both side are wrong, but it takes two to play this blame game in China/Korea. Because what happen if Japanese society did all it could to sincerely apologize for the past and change it is mindset and educate it is people once and for all like Germany have done, if they have done that, that would make the Chinese/Korean pretty hard to continue the blame, it would make them looks pity and childish.

But on the other hand, Japan have done almost everything to HELP China/Korea to fan the flame of hatred, the constant denying of comfort woman and Nanking only plays into the hand of the Chinese/Koreans who wants to hold onto the past.

It is almost as if China/Korea have infiltrated the Japanese government and make them to be as hard-line as possible to play into the hand of the Chinese/Korean government to keep up the blame game.

If I were Japan, it would be in my best interest to really change the way I do things, because all it takes is words to change the situation. I don’t understand why they see that sincerely apology and atonement is like the end to their civilization or something.

And the longer this hate/denying game plays the worst it will be for the future for all sides, as China and Korea gets stronger they will want revenge for the past.

There is a saying “Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves”, when the day China and Korea pays back for what Japan have done, they will not only destroy Japan, they will also destroy themselves in the process, this will be the real tragedy, the sins of our father continue to stains our future generations.

From what you’ve heard? So you don’t have any direct knowledge yourself?

Have you actually read the apologies at the link given above? Please point out where the apologies were ‘qualified’ or ‘hedged’. Please go read the Japanese government’s official policy statements on the issue. Please read this report on Japan’s textbook issueabout Japan’s textbook debate - hint: the issue isn’t nearly as cut-and-dry as China wants you to think. Ask yourself - does the treatment differ all that much from how much education we got in the US on the treatment of Native Americans or My Lai? The most controversial text book in Japan was The New History Textbook, by the Japanese Society for History Textbook Reform. While approved by the Ministry of Education, actual adoption is up to the discretion of the individual schools - and as of 2009, less than 2% of middle schools had adopted the text book. The equivalent in the US would be a school district deciding to teach intelligent design.

**sanblvd - **so you’re saying that you have lived in Japan, have gone to high school and university in Japan, you’re widely read up on Japanese periodicals & newspapers, you watch Japanese TV, and you’ve had so many intensive debates and converstations with Japanese, in English and in Japanese, and these Japanese friends have told you that “there are so much more Japanese that just don’t care about history or what their nation have done to others. The widespread is ignorance on purpose or by design is very much part of Japanese society”? Or is this, again, just something you’ve ‘heard’? On what exactly are you basing this view that ‘Japanese don’t care about history’, and that this is ‘on purpose/by design’?

There are so many logical fallacies here we could almost make a drinking game out of calling them out.

Then by all means, knock yourself out and point 'em out. Or are you just going to be a tease?

Are you seriously suggesting that the atrocities committed in China by Japan during their war there ‘don’t count’ because the communists were bad? What if the KMT had won the Chinese Civil War and ruled China only half as horribly as the communists did, would the Japanese only get half off for the horrors they perpetrated in China from 1937-45? Are the comfort women taken from Northern Korea worthy of only half the pity of those taken from Southern Korea because they had a worse post-WW2 government?

For starters there are more than a handful of loonies in Japanese politics claiming that the Nanking incident didn’t happen (btw, why do you put the word incident in single quotes? You realize it implies untruth to the quoted word), there have been quite a few Japanese politicians who have been elected to high offices, see for example Shintaro Ishihara who was the Mayor of Tokyo for 13 years. Now compare this to Germany, where it is a crime to deny that the Holocaust occurred, and consequently you won’t find a single mayor of the smallest town who has ever denied the Holocaust, much less a mayor of Bonn/Berlin who was in office for 13 years saying it didn’t happen.

In your own words, please do some basic research before spouting such nonsense. Contest to kill 100 people using a sword.

You are clearly not familiar with the Japanese treatment of the Chinese from 1937-45 if you can call what they did ‘military atrocities [committed] during war’ (here’s a hint: the Rape of Nanking happened after the military fighting had ended in the city) and dismiss any comparison as ‘silly’. Estimates of deaths of Chinese civilians from 1937-45 are 7,000,000 to 16,000,000.

I put ‘incident’ in quotes because that is what the loonies in Japanese politics do. That whooshing sound you hear…

Who said anything about Japan’s atrocities during the war ‘not counting’? The point is that China uses Japan-bashing today, 60 years after the fact and after numerous, repeated apologies from Japan, as a means of deflecting attention to domestic problems.

I asked for ‘regularly reported’ accounts of sport killing - I see one case, and it’s not without its question marks (one of the ‘contenstants’ was in a leader of a small artillery unit, the other was a captain in an infrantry battalion; seems odd that they would a) be fighting together at all on the front lines, and that b) they would be using swords. But even if we take the story at face value - that’s one story; you got any more? Is that your idea of ‘regularly reports’?

I notice that sanblvd hasn’t reappeared in the discussion.

Oh I am sorry oh great DragonAsh, this might come as a shock to you… but my life does not revolve around checking this board 24/7 and respond to your posting on a dime notice. So please forgave me great DragonAsh for responding not 1 second after your posting, I deserve the worst possible punishments.

So, instead of just directly respond to what you said, let me summarize your attitude and let me respond to that.

  1. Japan have made more than one apology to China and Korea, (Yes that’s right… besides the “bad guy” China who have a problem with Japan, the “good guy” Koreans hate you guys just as much.) so that it is unreasoning for China and Korea keep repeating the past over and over again. And the only reason they are doing this is for political purposes for today.

My response: I agree Japan have indeed make more than one official apology, but to many Asians they are both insincere and done for the sake of doing them. But Japanese society never had any real understand and atonement of what they have done to their neighbors. And judging from the so many important key political officials they keep getting elected to office that constantly have a history of denying/downplay war crimes makes the whole apology a farce for those who have suffered.

Sometimes I like to make examples in personal levels to make my point cross. Let’s say, you are a married man, have 3 wonderful Children and a lovely wife. One day you come home and find them all raped and murdered by unknown bad guys. Eventually the police caught them and sentience them to 60 years in jail. But the bad guys never really had any real remorse to what they have done, and when they apologize to you it is more like reading the script, while behind your back they continue to make fun of you and laugh at you, and keeping telling jokes about how they raped and killed your daughter and wife to their jail buddies. So tell me, how would you feel about that? I mean do you forgave them? And think it is all over, and drop the hate, because they “officially” apologize to you? And you have no problem whatever him making fun of the killing behind your back?

And what happens after 25 years of him serve his jail time, he finally got released due to “good behavior” and walking on the street again. While he still have no remorse whatsoever about the raping and killing of your family, and still make fun of that. Do you think it is all ok? I mean of courses they “officially” apologize. So you should NOT be angry, and if you are angry it is your fault. Do you agree with this logic?

And again, you like to point out that China keep blame Japan only because to take attention away from their own bad government. But… so what? Does this lessen the crime of what Japan have done? Following the previous example, after the guy who raped and killed your whole family shows no remorse, so you are always angry towards him. How would you feel if people say… the only reason you are angry and mad towards him is because you are not such a good person yourself, you are very bad to your current family, many people say you abuse your wife, and you were never kind to your own children. So you have no right to be angry to the guy who killed your original family, because you were probably not a good husband/father in the first place. Do you agree with this logic?

And lastly, it is interesting you only want to bring up China… China.. China… China of how they are so unreasonable towards Japan, but what about Korean? Vietnam? Philippine? or even some Western nations, there are still A LOT of hate coming from the “good guys” nations that are allied with the USA and still have problem with how Japan is dealing with history. So how can you explain that? How can you explain the deep hatred of Koreans towards Japan due to the past? Korean have a democratic government and a close allies of USA. Explain how would you like to spin this please.

  1. Attacking my personal background, how I am not a Japanese, how I didn’t went to high school in Japan etc.. how I don’t have 100% background in Japanese society, therefore it makes me 100% unqualified in talking about Japan.

By this logic, if I am not from one nation, no matter how much I learns about that nation, I am never qualified to make judgement about that nation. Then by that logic, you are violating your own rule, because you are not form China, you didn’t born there you didn’t go to high school there, you didn’t work there. Therefore you have no right to make conclusion on Chinese society/government/history or anything. So why is that you have no problem whatsoever make conclusion that the Chinese government is being unreasonable when they still remember Japanese crime, that the only reason they are doing so because of politic? I mean you were not born in China, so what right to have to make such conclusion?

Obvious such logic is BULLSHIT, you don’t need to be indigenous to one society to learn and make educated judgement about that society, you have right to make judgement of China and I agree with your assessment somewhat, just as much as I have the right to make educated judgement about Japanese society as well. And from my vast extensive contact with the Japanese people and my background in studying Japanese society/history, it is in my right to make educated judgement about Japan, and I believe I am very close.

That whooshing sound I hear is me still wondering why you choose to call it the Nanking ‘incident’. Can you even hear yourself here? When was the last time you heard a German politician talk about the ‘holocaust’? Yet you consider it to be okay for Japanese nationalist politicians to deny or minimize the horror that was the Rape of Nanking and Japanese occupation in general in China from 1937-45.

You did. You clearly think it counts for less because of postwar communist rule in China. The Chinese still have a thing against the Japanese because they invaded them, killed about 20 million of them, the majority being civilians, committed the Rape of Nanking, regularly used POWs for bayonet practice and a lengthy list of other horrors, and in spite of apologies still have politicians running around claiming it didn’t happen. You might be a bit pissed off yourself as a Chinese, even more so when there are folks running around saying the only reason it’s still an issue is because the Chinese government uses it to deflect from domestic problems. I hate to tell you, the government doesn’t have to whip up anti-Japanese sentiment from the Chinese citizenry to deflect criticism from itself. What Japan did 60 years ago and assholes like Shintaro Ishihara denying that it happened while holding office as the mayor of Tokyo for 13 years in spite of this do it just fine by themselves.

You should really try reading for comprehension. You reacted with incredulity to the fact that Japanese officers engaged in a beheading contest that was regularly reported in Japanese newspapers. That is exactly what happened. Your attempts to belittle it as only one occurrence is obscene, no one said otherwise, you just refused to believe that it happened at all. Your attempts to question the validity of the story is even more obscene. Of course they didn’t behead over 100 Chinese each in heroic single combat; they beheaded over 100 defenseless captives each. As sport. You did see the picture and article “The December 13, 1937 article in the Tokyo Nichi Nichi Shimbun’s Contest to kill 100 people using a sword series.” in the wiki article, right? The only thing more obscene than you questioning taking the story at face value was the attempt by the families of these two butchers to file a lawsuit:

The only part of the tale not to be taken at face value is that the killings were done in heroic combat as reported in the propaganda in the 1937 newspaper series. Their ‘opponents’ were clearly not able to fight back or defend themselves as Noda himself admitted. I’m reminded of a commentary on the infamous Dirlewanger Brigade:

Wow. And I thought it was getting impossible for you to be more wrong.

My father fought in Burma against the Japanese and retained a burning hatred for them until his dying day.

He would never speak of what he saw or heard but once he did quietly say in response to a teenage question of mine was what he hated most about them was how they “took away part of his humanity”. I didn’t understand at the time and not totally sure I do now, but I think he was indicating that the reaped what they sowed and the 14th Army didn’t risk trying to take too many prisoners.

But maybe it is war that takes away part of your humanity and not any individual enemy?

My mother’s family had similar reason to hate the Japanese - I did some research on the war and death of her favourite uncle which might interest some of you here - he was an investigator into Japanese War Crimes immediately after the War and was murdered by former Japanese soldiers who were now with the Indonesian communist independence movement.

See Squadron Leader F.G Birchall RAAF - Great Uncle Fred's Life, War & Death

Oh boy. Don’t look at a discussion for a couple of days, and see what happens.

For the long-forgotten OP, the question is why the Japanese were so cruel in WWII.

The quick answer is the Japanese militarism which became increasingly strong through the 1920s and then into the 30s and then the war. Bushido has a little to do with it as Christianity does to the Westboro folks, it was hijacked to service a more evil purpose. This is evidenced by the normal treatment of POWs by the Japanese in the Russo-Japanese war. It was only in the 30s that the army became so cruel. With universal conscription, the army drilled compliance into a populous which wasn’t that long out of a feudal system.

The structure of the Meiji Constitution created a structure which allowed militarism to develop unchecked by the civilian government. The Ministers of War (Army) and Navy had to be active duty officers, and the prime minister had to resign if he could not fill a cabinet, so he was at the mercy of the armed forces. The general staffs of the army and navy were independent of the respective ministries, and like the ministers, they reported not to the Prime Minister but directly to the emperor.

The ultra-nationalists attempted a number of coups, assassinated many government leaders and even threatened admirals who opposed them, ultimately unilaterally starting the war in China which lead to war with the Allies.

There is no doubt that the acts of the Japanese during the war were despicable. One searches in vain for words to adequately describe the unspeakable horrors.

The question is then why the Japanese didn’t develop the same sense of collective guilt which the Germans did after WWII. Many people point to this and try to make comparison, but there were large, material differences between the situations concerning the two Axis nations.

More German people were more involved in the rise of Nazism, which was a political party that received a plurality of votes, did enjoy the support of sizable percentage of the people. Hitler’s ascension to power in the early 30s was famously cheered on by large crowds of tens or hundreds of thousands. More Germans were active participants in the anti-Jewish laws and agreed with the Nazis that the Jews were a major problem which needed to be solved (although fewer knew about the death camps). The brutality occurred not in some far distant land but its own neighborhoods and its victim included its own citizens.

In contrast, in Japan the militarism was centered on the army and members of the non-elected ruling oligarchy. The violence occurred overseas, mostly out of view and knowledge of the average civilian. No one was rounded in the streets of Tokyo and political parties were suppressed rather than serve as an instrument of gathering public support. Political leaders did not spew hate-filled diatribes to cheering crowds.

There were major differences between how the wars ended and the timing and most importantly of how the Allies approached the issue. The land war on the European continent exposed the worst of Germany’s secrets to the world. The camps still stood and evidence of the massacres were there for all to see. Not only were they visible, but the Allies had enacted a wide-spread campaign of to rid Germany of Nazis and their sympathizers, forcibly bringing the atrocities to everyone’s attention. It was Allied pressure which was the impetious for the laws which ultimately banned the denial of the Hollicost.

In Japan, however, the war took several months longer, and the Japanese army was not overrun in areas where they had committed many of their atrocities. Even by then, there were concerns over the Soviet Union, and at least partly due to this the US Army participated in the cover-up of Unit 731. China’s attention was immediately distracted by its civil war. A critical part of the puzzle is that the US cooped the emperor in changing the nation, and was complicit in the cover-up of his responsibility. With the vast majority of the problem stemming from the then disbanded military, GHQ did not conduct an extensive propaganda campaign to impose a collective guilt on the Japanese population

Japanese intellectuals were highly critical of the militarism and successfully fought displays of the flag and the national anthem at school graduations for years, to take one example.

Timing is everything. With the successful cover-up of the worst of the civilian atrocities, including the Rape of Nanking, the Comfort Women and Unit 731 until decades later, when the news did come out, the shock value was considerably less. Less people could directly relate.

This is not an apology for the actions of the Japanese. Note my repeated use of words such as “atrocities.” Nor it is an excuse for the lack of earlier, clearer apologies and an honest approach to history.

It is, however, my opinion on why comparisons to Germany are not as black and white as some would think or claim.

It was Allied pressure which was the **impetus **for the laws which ultimately banned the denial of the Holocaust. Grrrrrr.

Um… you really really shouldn’t be making any assumptions about where I was born, where my parents are from, where I went to high school (and uni) and where I worked…

TokyoBayer, I just wanted to chime in to say that that was a very informative post, that answered the question of the OP, and the question of collective guilt, to my satisfaction. Thanks!

Ditto – that’s probably the best explanation I’ve read in this thread. (NOT to take away from any other good ones, of course)

BTW, I recently read a good book on the Great Leap Foreward – it’s called Hungry Ghosts. While what Mao’s government did was utterly cruel and insanely disturbing, it happened more than twenty-years after Nanking. Nanking was in 1937, the GLF didn’t occurr until 1958.

Careful, TokyoBayer - your very detailed and accurate explanation won’t go down well with the Chinese that just want to howl “Japanese are eeeeeevillll”.

Nor should it give comfort to people who wish to paper over the acts. Though in the past, they were evil. Along with the Holocaust, and a host of other horrors, the history of Unit 731 should be taught to every high school student as an example of barbarism and the terrible capacity for inhumanity.

I have equally little patience with both sides, and am equally disgusted with those who accuse for political gain as well as those who deny for the same.

That the bells which toll at 8:15 each August 6th and 11:01 each August 9th remain silent each December 13th on the anniversary of the fall of Nanking ensures that they ring hollow. Claiming victimhood for the guilty is a sword which cuts both ways for all parties here. There are few innocents in this world.

While I reject an absolute comparison between the two Axis countries, I also reject a willful amnesia. Just as Americans must remember that they were a nation in which one race of humans enslaved another, Japanese must remember their nation was responsible for some of the most despicable actions which one human has done to another. The Chinese do not escape this. They have their very real past to also deal with.

RE the OP: Ditto the current empire from Wounded Knee to the 2nd Battle of Fallujah.

The funny thing that I assume you are unaware of is that all you are doing by making ridiculous statements like this is demonstrating your prejudice against the Chinese. Even funnier is that you think that TokyoBayer is providing an apologia for your position.

I just wanted to say this was a fantastic post.