# Why Were The Mayans So Obsessed With Impossibly Remote Dates? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 1, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880 "2011-04-01T23:11:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/1 "2011-04-01T23:11:00Z")
All the nonsense about 2012 puzzles me…not because I believe that there is anything special about the date…or that it marks the end of a “long count” of the Mayan years. What interests me is : -why did the Mayans obsess about being able to calculate calendar dares, over such vast intervals of times? -what concerned them about the time intervals chosen? Like our obsession with the century-it is just 100 years, nothing special about it. Anybody know a good book dealing with this topic? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/2 "2011-04-02T00:03:59Z")
The Mayans didn’t obsess over 2012. The Mayans believed everything was cyclical. To them, 2012 would be just like the odometer in a car rolling over. It’s modern idiots who have perverted 2012 into the end of the world. Here’s Dex’s staff report on the subject: > **[Does the Mayan calendar predict the end of the world in 2012?](https://www.straightdope.com/21343420/does-the-mayan-calendar-predict-the-end-of-the-world-in-2012)** > > A STAFF REPORT FROM THE STRAIGHT DOPE SCIENCE ADVISORY BOARD ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/3 "2011-04-02T00:23:56Z")
Well, to be fair, back when cars still had odometers that rolled over, that usually did mean the end was nigh. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/4 "2011-04-02T00:42:35Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > Well, to be fair, back when cars still had odometers that rolled over, that usually did mean the end was nigh. 🙂 You are right on that. We almost had to push my mother’s Chevy Chevette across the finish line. It went to the junk yard with 100,002 miles on the odometer but that was only because it broke down at the top of a long hill. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/5 "2011-04-02T01:28:42Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > The Mayans didn’t obsess over 2012. The Mayans believed everything was cyclical. To them, 2012 would be just like the odometer in a car rolling over. It’s modern idiots who have perverted 2012 into the end of the world. > > Here’s Dex’s staff report on the subject: > [Does the Mayan calendar predict the end of the world in 2012? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2283/does-the-mayan-calendar-predict-the-end-of-the-world-in-2012) That didn’t really seem like the question to me. Dex’s staff report seems to briefly address it, but only so much as to say “we’re not too sure.” I think ralph’s question was more along the lines of: What was the point of the long count calendar? Why would they possibly have a calendar designed to count arbitrarily far into the future? What is special about the cycle length? Lunar/Solar/Seasonal, all of those are cycles, they make sense, and the Mayans even kept track of many of them, but they made this a cycle… for what reason? What does this cycle represent that they needed to keep track of it? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/6 "2011-04-02T02:22:42Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Why would they possibly have a calendar designed to count arbitrarily far into the future? We have one. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/7 "2011-04-02T02:36:48Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > What was the point of the long count calendar? Why would they possibly have a calendar designed to count arbitrarily far into the future? They needed some way to refer to historical events, and their other dating systems (based on 260 days and 365 days) repeat themselves every 52 years. So they started on the day the world was created (3114 BC), and dated forward from there. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/8 "2011-04-02T02:41:25Z")
I’d say the answer is that you shouldn’t think of them as odd or distinct at all. Just the opposite. They were like every other culture. Well, there are two major types of worldviews. One is the idea of cycles of civilization or of the world or of the work of the gods or whatever. Hindu mythology is strikingly cycle-based and uses some long periods of time as well as the more immediate reincarnations. So do several Native American mythologies. Other religions posit a creation myth set well into the past, like the Greeks or even the Judeo-Christian creation. Others, like the Norse, talked about both a creation and an ending period. Almost all of these are conveniently beyond human lifetimes and/or memories. They can’t be checked or reasoned into a secular past or future. (That’s one of the issues troubling modern Christianity, with a set of apocalyptic sects insisting on an ending within sight.) So the Mayans used cycles. So the Mayans used long periods of time. Neither is worth much comment in the context of the mythologies of the world. (Of course they didn’t obsess about it, but that’s already been mentioned.) It happens that a year that corresponds to a cycle will occur, a mere 20 centuries of so after someone thought it up. For them, 20 centuries was essentially forever. The cycle’s end may or may not originally had the significance of an odometer rollover but that’s irrelevant either way. They thought pretty much the same way everybody thinks. The Day After Tomorrow is not my problem. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/9 "2011-04-02T04:20:12Z")
In Hinduism there is also a great concern with extremely long periods of time. They have units of time that last for trillions of years: > **[Indian units of measurement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_units_of_measurement)** > > Before the introduction of the Metric system, one may divide the history of Indian systems of measurement into three main periods: the pre-Akbar's period, the period of the Akbar system, and the British colonial period. > During pre-Akbar period, weights and measure system varied from region to region, commodity to commodity, and rural to urban areas. The weights were based on the weight of various seeds (specially the wheat berry and Ratti) and lengths were based on the length of arms and width o... ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/10 "2011-04-02T04:26:28Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > That didn’t really seem like the question to me. Dex’s staff report seems to briefly address it, but only so much as to say “we’re not too sure.” I think ralph’s question was more along the lines of: > > What was the point of the long count calendar? Why would they possibly have a calendar designed to count arbitrarily far into the future? > > What is special about the cycle length? Lunar/Solar/Seasonal, all of those are cycles, they make sense, and the Mayans even kept track of many of them, but they made this a cycle… for what reason? What does this cycle represent that they needed to keep track of it? The long count was how long the Fourth World (or Fourth Era) would last, if I’m not mistaken (I may be mistaking my Mayans for my Aztecs). If I’m right though, they believed the world we live in had already gone through 3 cycles of… something. I’m not sure if it was a literal creation/destruction/rebirth, or more of a symbolic cycle of civilizations going up and down. But they did believe that at the end of this fourth cycle the Earth would birth an egg, and that egg would become a new world; while all life on \*this \*world would be elevated into its perfect form and… well, go on to another stage of existence I guess. Again, I’m not sure if they meant it all literally, or as symbols and metaphors. In any case, they had a vested interest in tracking down the exact length of time this here Fourth World would last and when the Fifth would start. I figure they were relieved to know it was far, far ahead. Nobody wants an elevation into perfection on their watch. There’d be nobody left to pay their taxes, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/11 "2011-04-02T04:46:17Z")
Calendars are reflective of culture and language IMHO. In Judaism, the year is 5774 (the date of Earth’s creation). In the West, it’s B.C./A.D. Right now it is 2011. A few thousand years ago, no one thought the world had been here for millions of years and I’m sure no one imagined sticking around much longer. It’s very hard to imagine an Earth with people on it in four thousand years from today. Man constantly surprises himself. How could we possibly go on if we had acquired all there was to know? And what the heck is the purpose of this, anyway? So yes, the reasonable explanation is that man is at the height of his cognitive ability and it is only a matter of time before the world implodes. We put number constraints on everything (volume, time, length, etc.). Do you know why no one sells eggs in a baker’s dozen? Cause that would freak people out. Yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/12 "2011-04-02T13:19:03Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > The Mayans didn’t obsess over 2012. The Mayans believed everything was cyclical. To them, 2012 would be just like the odometer in a car rolling over. It’s modern idiots who have perverted 2012 into the end of the world. > > Here’s Dex’s staff report on the subject: > [Does the Mayan calendar predict the end of the world in 2012? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2283/does-the-mayan-calendar-predict-the-end-of-the-world-in-2012) Wait: I thought that it had been changed to May of this year? Should I cancel the hookers? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/13 "2011-04-02T13:52:14Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Wait: I thought that it had been changed to May of this year? Should I cancel the hookers? The May 2011 people are a group of Krazy Kristians that have done some Very Important Math they found in the Bible. (This is like the third time they’ve done this Math, so I’m sure they got all the kinks out of it this time.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/14 "2011-04-02T18:08:48Z")
Why are we modern Westerners so obsessed with the year 10,000 AD? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/15 "2011-04-02T18:15:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Why are we modern Westerners so obsessed with the year 10,000 AD? [The y10k bug](http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2550)! ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/16 "2011-04-03T12:46:45Z")
Thanks for the replies…as I say, as a early 21st-century American, I only concern myself with dates from about 1900 onwards…to me, 1860 is IMPOSSIBLY remote-and a date like 1500 even moreso. Yet the Mayans cared enough to calculate dates far earlier than this…I just don’t see why. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/17 "2011-04-03T12:58:51Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Thanks for the replies..as I say, as a early 21st-century American, I only concern myself with dates from about 1900 onwards..to me, 1860 is IMPOSSIBLY remote-and a date like 1500 even moreso. > Yet the Mayans cared enough to calculate dates far earlier than this..I just don’t see why. Our scientists have calculated the approximate date when the Sun is going to go red giant on us. It’s impossibly remote… for now. Same difference. Or, for a more related version: Christians and Jews, even 21st century American ones, have performed any number of computations with dates and generations in the book, trying to figure out Jesus’ birthday or the exact day Genesis happened. Pointless to be sure, and just as extremely remote, but it seems important to them anyway. Why would the Mayans be different ? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/18 "2011-04-03T15:40:32Z")
ralph124c41 writes: \> . . . as a early 21st-century American, I only concern myself with dates from \> about 1900 onwards . . . If that’s what you believe you’re concerned with, so be it. That doesn’t mean that your particular limited set of concerns are typical of present-day Americans though. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/19 "2011-04-03T16:09:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Thanks for the replies..as I say, as a early 21st-century American, I only concern myself with dates from about 1900 onwards..to me, 1860 is IMPOSSIBLY remote-and a date like 1500 even moreso. Do you refer to this as the year 111? Why not, if it’s only been 111 years since the earliest date you concern yourself with? Why do you use a calendar system which can accommodate spans of millennia if you’re only interested in a couple hundred years of that? Maybe the Mayans only cared about a couple of hundred years, too, and used a calendar capable of dealing with millennia for the same reasons you do. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880/20 "2011-04-03T16:37:09Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > ralph124c41 writes: > > \> . . . as a early 21st-century American, I only concern myself with dates from > \> about 1900 onwards . . . > > If that’s what you believe you’re concerned with, so be it. That doesn’t mean that your particular limited set of concerns are typical of present-day Americans though. Unfortunately, it does. With the special exception of the year 0, which doesn’t even exist, despite the personage who was supposed to have been born then. 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-mayans-so-obsessed-with-impossibly-remote-dates/576880.md?page=2)