# Why were the suspects in the satanic abuse cases convicted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083 "2012-06-23T16:33:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/1 "2012-06-23T16:33:55Z")
> **[Satanic panic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse)** > > The Satanic panic is a moral panic consisting of over 12,000 unsubstantiated cases of Satanic ritual abuse (SRA, sometimes known as ritual abuse, ritualistic abuse, organized abuse, or sadistic ritual abuse) starting in the United States in the 1980s, spreading throughout many parts of the world by the late 1990s, and persisting today. The panic originated in 1980 with the publication of Michelle Remembers, a book co-written by Canadian psychiatrist Lawrence Pazder and his patient (and future wi... Why did the justice system fail so spectacularly here? I have seen a documentary where the accused are made to appear totally innocent, and the claims made by the children and supposedly coached from them so outlandish they should never have been unchallenged in court(abuse occuring in flying airplanes during the time the children were in daycare, thousands of corpses buried and never found, genitals cut off and reattached etc). I’m open to info here on what if any is missing from the usual coverage. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/2 "2012-06-23T17:34:42Z")
I think the case that blew the lid off this scandal was the [McMartin preschool trial.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial) The police took seriously accusations from a mentally ill mother, and before a serious investigation had been done sent out this letter to the other parents: > [@](#): > > September 8, 1983. Dear Parent: This Department is conducting a criminal investigation involving child molestation (288 P.C.) Ray Buckey, an employee of Virginia McMartin’s Pre-School, was arrested September 7, 1983 by this Department. The following procedure is obviously an unpleasant one, but to protect the rights of your children as well as the rights of the accused, this inquiry is necessary for a complete investigation. Records indicate that your child has been or is currently a student at the pre-school. We are asking your assistance in this continuing investigation. Please question your child to see if he or she has been a witness to any crime or if he or she has been a victim. Our investigation indicates that possible criminal acts include: oral sex, fondling of genitals, buttock or chest area, and sodomy, possibly committed under the pretense of “taking the child’s temperature.” Also photos may have been taken of children without their clothing. Any information from your child regarding having ever observed Ray Buckey to leave a classroom alone with a child during any nap period, or if they have ever observed Ray Buckey tie up a child, is important. Please complete the enclosed information form and return it to this Department in the enclosed stamped return envelope as soon as possible. We will contact you if circumstances dictate same. We ask you to please keep this investigation strictly confidential because of the nature of the charges and the highly emotional effect it could have on our community. Please do not discuss this investigation with anyone outside your immediate family. Do not contact or discuss the investigation with Raymond Buckey, any member of the accused defendant’s family, or employees connected with the McMartin Pre-School. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/3 "2012-06-23T17:46:52Z")
The checks and balances that exist in a legal system are only as good as the people applying them. In this case, the investigative and prosecuting agencies and the judiciary all seem to have failed…spectacularly. Child abuse is a crime which tends to raise great emotion and there is a rush to judgement, the public want answers and the system wishes to give it to them. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/4 "2012-06-24T06:42:14Z")
Well I’m no expert, but presumably because a jury thought they had been proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/5 "2012-06-24T19:15:28Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Well I’m no expert, but presumably because a jury thought they had been proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Except that they didn’t \*“After six years of criminal trials, no convictions were obtained, and all charges were dropped in 1990. When the trial ended in 1990 it had been the longest and most expensive criminal trial in American history.” - ---
**Author:** ![computergeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e56c9b/32.png) [@computergeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/computergeek)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/6 "2012-06-24T20:08:14Z")
Accusations of Satanic abuse was big in the 80s for some stupid reason and the McMartin case ended up being the dumbest result of that and the outcome probably helped put a stop to the notion of widespread Satanic abuse. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/7 "2012-06-24T21:04:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Except that they didn’t \*“After six years of criminal trials, no convictions were obtained, and all charges were dropped in 1990. When the trial ended in 1990 it had been the longest and most expensive criminal trial in American history.” In that particular case, yes. But it wasn’t the first. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/8 "2012-06-24T21:17:15Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > In that particular case, yes. But it wasn’t the first. The McMartin case is the only one I’ve ever heard anything about. What cases resulted in convictions? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/9 "2012-06-24T21:32:56Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > The McMartin case is the only one I’ve ever heard anything about. What cases resulted in convictions? The West Memphis 3 came in at the tail end of the Satanic Panic era back in 1994. The prosecution brought in Dale W. Griffis as their expert on occult crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/10 "2012-06-24T21:34:30Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > The McMartin case is the only one I’ve ever heard anything about. What cases resulted in convictions? Quite a few, actually. Google for _[Wee Care,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wee_Care_Nursery_School)_ _[Little Rascals,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rascals_day_care_sexual_abuse_trial)_ [Wenatchee, WA,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rascals_day_care_sexual_abuse_trial) and anything Kee MacFarlane was involved in as a witness. Kee never met a child that wasn’t abused, and even if he/she said she wasn’t, by the time the interview was over, Kee had convinced him/her that he/she was. That explains a lot, BTW. If you have a society ready to believe, all you have to do is feed and prod it a little and the fearmongers will take over. Related topics: recovered memories, Satan worship > **[List of satanic ritual abuse allegations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_satanic_ritual_abuse_allegations)** > > During the 1980s and 1990s, a moral panic about alleged satanic ritual abuse occurred, mainly in parts of the English-speaking world. This was propagated by certain psychotherapists, social workers, Christian fundamentalists, and law enforcement officials. > Some of the cases ended in prosecution and imprisonment; all but one of those imprisoned have been released. Australia, the United Kingdom, and the United States have had several incidents of alleged satanic ritual abuse which received nation... ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/11 "2012-06-24T21:37:03Z")
McMartin was a combination of several events coming together: 1. Was the fundie wet-dream of satanic cults running behind closed doors, with massive influence, a huge crime-spree, and secret caves. Even those who were not fundies were hearing stories told of the massive satanic organizations. 2. We were just starting to acknowledge that children were being molested and that the previous few decades of dealing with the cases had left the molesters able to grope with impunity - weak punishments, a tendency to think the kids were just making up stories. The turnaround was very fast and there was still some whiplash. 3. Forensic scientists and doctors who really had no idea what they were looking for but wanted to be pioneers in this new field of prosecution pretty much just fooled themselves into thinking they were finding evidence. 4. The letter, shown above. This is just asking for mass-hysteria. This was repeated a few times. 5. ‘Recovered memories’, although not much of a part of McMartin case, certainly contributed to the atmosphere that lead people to believe in the Satanic groups. 6. Media panic: drop some chicken bones and grafitti a Pentagram on a wall down by the river in the 80’s (and early 90’s) and watch the media frenzy over “Satanic Cults in your fair city!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/12 "2012-06-24T21:48:37Z")
In the [Wenatchee case](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenatchee_sex_ring) alone, > [@](#): > > Forty-three adults were arrested on 29,726 charges of child sex abuse, involving 60 children in 1995. Parents and Sunday school teachers were charged, and many were convicted of abusing children, often including their own, or their foster children. It’s important to note that there was only one “witness”: > [@](#): > > Prosecutors were unable to provide any physical evidence to support the charges. The main witness was Perez’ foster daughter; …She said she had been raped or molested by almost every adult she knew, and that the same molestation had occurred to almost every other child she knew…Perez [the Dad] was the investigator of the cases. Although it’s not all grim, > [@](#): > > Those who were convicted were freed by higher courts and had their convictions overturned or pleaded guilty on lesser charges. Five served their full sentences before their cases were overturned. Some lost parental rights. By 2000, the last person in custody, Michael Rose, was released, after a judge vacated his March 1995 convictions. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/13 "2012-06-24T21:58:45Z")
To the OP: **Grude,** you might find a video interesting, _[Capturing the Friedmans,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capturing_the_Friedmans)_ readily available on Netflix, at video stores, etc. It documents the prosecution and conviction of a family caught up in the panic of the time, and what sets it apart is the family frequently videotaped their personal lives as the situation was unfolding. This video made it possible to observe things from another point of view than is usually seen. It could be argued that Arnold Friedman was not totally innocent, as he may have obtained some porn magazines slightly more risque than {gasp} _Playboy_, :rolleyes: but it becomes obvious that whatever he may have been guilty of, it was far less than what he was so doggedly accused of and pursued for, to his imprisonment and death. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/14 "2012-06-24T22:04:44Z")
Missed the edit window. > [@](#): > > On August 16, 2010 the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit denied Jesse Friedman’s bid to withdraw his guilty plea but said he was probably wrongly convicted and was pressured into pleading guilty to a crime he may not have committed because police, prosecutors and the judge in the case were overzealous and swept up in the hysteria of the times. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/15 "2012-06-24T22:07:07Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The checks and balances that exist in a legal system are only as good as the people applying them. In this case, the investigative and prosecuting agencies and the judiciary all seem to have failed…spectacularly. Child abuse is a crime which tends to raise great emotion and there is a rush to judgement, the public want answers and the system wishes to give it to them. And thanks to being tried by public opinion, no matter how much someone protests their innocence, the world is willing to believe the worst rumors about the person no matter what defense they offer.:rolleyes: > [@Musicat](#): > > Quite a few, actually. Google for _[Wee Care,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wee_Care_Nursery_School)_ _[Little Rascals,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rascals_day_care_sexual_abuse_trial)_ [Wenatchee, WA,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rascals_day_care_sexual_abuse_trial) and anything Kee MacFarlane was involved in as a witness. Kee never met a child that wasn’t abused, and even if he/she said she wasn’t, by the time the interview was over, Kee had convinced him/her that he/she was. > > Related topics: recovered memories, Satan worship > > [List of satanic ritual abuse allegations - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_satanic_ritual_abuse_allegations) And I do actually know someone who was thoroughly convinced their kid was abused [this was now when they were 17ish years old] and no matter how they protested that they had never had the particular phys ed teacher, never met that teacher and was never alone with any phys ed teacher in every year of school they could remember was pretty much forcibly dragged to several kid shrinks and finally to one prosecutor until she went to a judge in the hallway of the courthouse and begged to him to make everybody leave her alone. Annie’s mum has _serious_ problems - she gets panic attacks if she is alone in a huge room with a \ man \ I have seen her drag Annie across the street if there is a couple of guys walking in their direction. Annie effectively ran away from home to college and hasn’t been back since. I still get calls from her mom asking if I have heard from her, and am I sure she isn’t pregnant from rape:smack:☹ ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/16 "2012-06-24T22:39:03Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Quite a few, actually. Google for _[Wee Care,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wee_Care_Nursery_School)_ _[Little Rascals,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rascals_day_care_sexual_abuse_trial)_ [Wenatchee, WA,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rascals_day_care_sexual_abuse_trial) and anything Kee MacFarlane was involved in as a witness. Kee never met a child that wasn’t abused, and even if he/she said she wasn’t, by the time the interview was over, Kee had convinced him/her that he/she was. > > That explains a lot, BTW. If you have a society ready to believe, all you have to do is feed and prod it a little and the fearmongers will take over. > > Related topics: recovered memories, Satan worship > > [List of satanic ritual abuse allegations - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_satanic_ritual_abuse_allegations) Thanks. > [@Musicat](#): > > To the OP: **Grude,** you might find a video interesting, _[Capturing the Friedmans,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capturing_the_Friedmans)_ readily available on Netflix, at video stores, etc. It documents the prosecution and conviction of a family caught up in the panic of the time, and what sets it apart is the family frequently videotaped their personal lives as the situation was unfolding. This video made it possible to observe things from another point of view than is usually seen. > > It could be argued that Arnold Friedman was not totally innocent, as he may have obtained some porn magazines slightly more risque than {gasp} _Playboy_, :rolleyes: but it becomes obvious that whatever he may have been guilty of, it was far less than what he was so doggedly accused of and pursued for, to his imprisonment and death. Well, I would definitely argue that child pornography is a bit more risqué than Playboy, although your eye-rolling suggests that you don’t think it’s that big a deal? That’s how the guy first came to notice. Also, I never heard that it was controversial that he had molested children – he’s acknowledged that (and I’m not talking about his guilty plea here) – just that the specific charges may have been false. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/17 "2012-06-24T22:40:21Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > McMartin was a combination of several events coming together: > > \ > > 1. We were just starting to acknowledge that children were being molested and that the previous few decades of dealing with the cases had left the molesters able to grope with impunity - weak punishments, a tendency to think the kids were just making up stories. The turnaround was very fast and there was still some whiplash. Oddly enough – and speaking of whiplash – there were people who frequently attended the McMartin trial wearing buttons that said “Believe the Children.” They did not think that kids were capable of making up stories, even after it was shown that the kids were encouraged by a “therapist” to fantasize and some events could not possibly have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/18 "2012-06-24T22:50:30Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > Well, I would definitely argue that child pornography is a bit more risqué than Playboy, although your eye-rolling suggests that you don’t think it’s that big a deal? That’s how the guy first came to notice. Also, I never heard that it was controversial that he had molested children – he’s acknowledged that (and I’m not talking about his guilty plea here) – just that the specific charges may have been false. Perhaps I should have tied the eye-roll to the _Playboy_ reference a little better. BTW – the magazines were obtained thru a police sting; it’s possible that Friedman never would have obtained them if the police hadn’t enticed him first. At the trial, his collection of magazines that were put into evidence as baaaad included _Playboys_, so the prosecution certainly had a negative opinion of them and put them in the same class as child pornography. If you are talking about Arnold Friedman, his guilty plea only came after his wife forced him to do that in the mistaken belief that he could spare his son, Jesse. And Jesse filed 3 court petitions claiming coercion in his guilty plea and asking for them to be overturned (he didn’t get it). Arnold died in prison. It appears (and this is a matter of opinion) that Arnold was guilty of ordering one or more magazines from Sweden that most people would think a little improper. _Nothing else was ever proved._ But the police, prosecutors and others made a giant leap into unproven territory, accusing him of molesting the kids he taught for computer class, none of whom corroborated. To some minds, they were the same unforgivable offenses; all they had to do to convict for one was to accuse the other. And it worked. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/19 "2012-06-25T15:17:34Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Quite a few, actually. Google for _[Wee Care,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wee_Care_Nursery_School)_ _[Little Rascals,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rascals_day_care_sexual_abuse_trial)_ [Wenatchee, WA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rascals_day_care_sexual_abuse_trial)… And [Gerald Amirault](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fells_Acres_Day_Care_Center_preschool_trial) spent 20 years in prison. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083/20 "2012-06-25T19:42:39Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Oddly enough – and speaking of whiplash – there were people who frequently attended the McMartin trial wearing buttons that said “Believe the Children.” They did not think that kids were capable of making up stories, even after it was shown that the kids were encouraged by a “therapist” to fantasize and some events could not possibly have happened. At the time it was not well understood how recovered memories could be induced, so juries tended to believe the supposed testimony of children to respected authority figures. IIRC those who first started challenging the accuracy or recovered memories were accused of supporting child molesters. In some case I think that religious people saw denial of Satanic cults as denial of Satan and thus Christianity. Not the biggest factor, but certainly one. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-were-the-suspects-in-the-satanic-abuse-cases-convicted/626083.md?page=2)