# Why weren't the first internal combustion engines ran on kerosene? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 28, 2015, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-the-first-internal-combustion-engines-ran-on-kerosene/713816 "2015-02-28T00:53:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-the-first-internal-combustion-engines-ran-on-kerosene/713816/1 "2015-02-28T00:53:25Z")
Gasoline was a byproduct of distilling oil for kerosene. Apparently the invention of the automobile drove the gasoline production higher. But if gasoline was considered worthless enough to be thrown out why would an engine be developed to use it rather than the plentiful kerosene? ---
**Author:** ![Cabin\_Fever\_1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cabin_fever_1/32/2908_2.png) [@Cabin\_Fever\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cabin_Fever_1)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-the-first-internal-combustion-engines-ran-on-kerosene/713816/2 "2015-02-28T01:11:55Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > Gasoline was a byproduct of distilling oil for kerosene. Apparently the invention of the automobile drove the gasoline production higher. But if gasoline was considered worthless enough to be thrown out why would an engine be developed to use it rather than the plentiful kerosene? Not sure sure why you would consider gasoline “thrown out”. Interesting history there. Why did we flare out natural gas? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-the-first-internal-combustion-engines-ran-on-kerosene/713816/3 "2015-02-28T01:12:06Z")
gasoline can be ignited by spark. kerosene can’t. kerosene is a middle distillate fairly close to diesel fuel and would work in a compression-ignition (diesel) engine or a continuous-burn engine like a gas turbine. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-the-first-internal-combustion-engines-ran-on-kerosene/713816/4 "2015-02-28T01:21:45Z")
> [@Cabin\_Fever](#): > > Not sure sure why you would consider gasoline “thrown out”. > Interesting history there. Why did we flare out natural gas? back in the early days of oil refining, kerosene and lamp oil were the primarily desired products. gasoline and lighter fractions were too volatile to be of much use at first. [http://knowledgenuts.com/2014/02/24/gasoline-used-to-be-considered-garbage/](http://knowledgenuts.com/2014/02/24/gasoline-used-to-be-considered-garbage/) ---
**Author:** ![Cabin\_Fever\_1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cabin_fever_1/32/2908_2.png) [@Cabin\_Fever\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cabin_Fever_1)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-the-first-internal-combustion-engines-ran-on-kerosene/713816/5 "2015-02-28T01:25:00Z")
BTW, a related thread slightly off-topic here [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=750153](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=750153) ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-the-first-internal-combustion-engines-ran-on-kerosene/713816/6 "2015-02-28T01:35:49Z")
Older ignition engine farm tractors were dual fuel. They’d start on gasoline and when they were all warmed up the operator would turn a valve and switch to kerosene. You’d better remember to switch back before stopping. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-the-first-internal-combustion-engines-ran-on-kerosene/713816/7 "2015-02-28T12:25:11Z")
It does seem more intuitive and easier that fuel + spark = fire, then compression + fuel = fire, and more controllable and easier to time the explosion to push a piston. Also the piston didn’t need to have that high compression in a gasoline engine to work. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-the-first-internal-combustion-engines-ran-on-kerosene/713816/8 "2015-02-28T14:32:22Z")
Ok I guess that makes sense. I didn’t realize that kerosene couldn’t be ignited with a spark. So when people talk about inventing the automobile it seems like they are really meaning the internal combustion engine/ chassis combination? Was there any widespread use of gasoline before the ICE? ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-the-first-internal-combustion-engines-ran-on-kerosene/713816/9 "2015-02-28T14:57:42Z")
This has a lot to do with two things : 1\> Steam Engines - Modern IC engines evolved from Steam Engines 2\> Producer Gas - Town gas or coal gas (Came much before kerosene or diesel or petroleum) When the inventors look around, they saw Steam engines and the natural thought was to replace that steam with something else as motive force. And also when they looked around they saw the obvious motive force :Town gas which was already used to light up homes. The first engine to be produced in numbers was the [Lenoir engine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89tienne_Lenoir) that run on coal gas. These engines had very low compression ratio and were inefficient. The idea of compressing the gas did not come to them because they were based on the steam engine. When gasoline (petrol) came around - it was easy to replace the coal gas with gasoline since it had much of the same properties. With time, they realized that gasoline engines could be more efficient with a compression stroke and that too much compression would cause the gasoline to ignite even without the spark. The diesel engine followed. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-the-first-internal-combustion-engines-ran-on-kerosene/713816/10 "2015-02-28T15:50:33Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > Was there any widespread use of gasoline before the ICE? Some of it was used in the paint and varnish industry, although not enough to make a dent in the amount spilled into the ground and nearby waters. The ICU was around before the mass production of autos, though, and the first gasoline-powered tractor was made in 1892. Some of the earlier experimental cars could run on gasoline but even combined that was hardly a use. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-the-first-internal-combustion-engines-ran-on-kerosene/713816/11 "2015-02-28T21:25:45Z")
Diesel (or kerosene) engines require much higher compression to work. Which means they required both stronger materials (steel, seals, bearings etc.) and more precision machining of their parts. Ergo, gasoline engines were much easier to fabricate and mass produce early on. ---
**Author:** ![Kansas\_Beekeeper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@Kansas\_Beekeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kansas_Beekeeper)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-the-first-internal-combustion-engines-ran-on-kerosene/713816/12 "2015-03-01T01:02:15Z")
> [@GaryM](#): > > Older ignition engine farm tractors were dual fuel. They’d start on gasoline and when they were all warmed up the operator would turn a valve and switch to kerosene. You’d better remember to switch back before stopping. I owned a 1947 John Deere Model D that started on gasoline, then switched to kerosene or “distillate.” It was spark ignition. The old John Deere’s were all two cylinder engines, with very large cylinders. The “all fuel” models had lower compression than the straight gas engines. Here’s a 1926 D running on kerosene: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/lELZcteMk9I/hqdefault.jpg "1926 John Deere D burning kerosene") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lELZcteMk9I) ---
**Author:** ![Kansas\_Beekeeper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@Kansas\_Beekeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kansas_Beekeeper)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-the-first-internal-combustion-engines-ran-on-kerosene/713816/13 "2015-03-01T01:15:03Z")
Here’s a good post on kerosene in gasoline engines: [http://www.smokstak.com/library/technical-information-7/running-kerosene-in-a-gasoline-engine-23/](http://www.smokstak.com/library/technical-information-7/running-kerosene-in-a-gasoline-engine-23/) ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-the-first-internal-combustion-engines-ran-on-kerosene/713816/14 "2015-03-01T05:37:34Z")
[quote=“Kansas\_Beekeeper, post:12, topic:713816”] I owned a 1947 John Deere Model D that started on gasoline, then switched to kerosene or “distillate.” It was spark ignition. The old John Deere’s were all two cylinder engines, with very large cylinders. The “all fuel” models had lower compression than the straight gas engines. Here’s a 1926 D running on kerosene: [/QUOTE] We had a BO litterman track layer. We called that tractor The Jonny Popper. It would just pop along and when one of the brake handles were pulled to turn or when started up an incline it would give one loud pop and keep on going. ---
**Author:** ![Deereman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Deereman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deereman)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-the-first-internal-combustion-engines-ran-on-kerosene/713816/15 "2015-03-01T09:25:21Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Diesel (or kerosene) engines require much higher compression to work. Which means they required both stronger materials (steel, seals, bearings etc.) and more precision machining of their parts. Ergo, gasoline engines were much easier to fabricate and mass produce early on. What you said is true about diesels. but the farm kerosene tractors were LOW compression, and yes they were spark ignition, just like the gasoline engines of the day (magnetos or distributors) These engines generally had “hotter” manifolds because kerosene is so hard to vaporize (to allow it burn properly). Exhaust heat was routed near or around the intake to keep it hot and the kerosene vaporized as it travelled into the cylinders. Strangely enough, the engines were low compression because kerosene has a LOWER auto ignition point then gasoline: > **[Flash point](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point#Examples)** > > The flash point of a material is the "lowest liquid temperature at which, under certain standardized conditions, a liquid gives off vapours in a quantity such as to be capable of forming an ignitable vapour/air mixture". > The flash point is sometimes confused with the autoignition temperature, the temperature that causes spontaneous ignition. The fire point is the lowest temperature at which the vapors keep burning after the ignition source is removed. It is higher than the flash point, because a... The kerosene would get in the cylinder and preignite… “knock” too early if the compression was too high (like normal gasoline compression ratios). Some engines used water injection to stop the knock. Kerosene engines were definitely started on gas then switched to kero when HOT as others said. They don’t run well cold at all. Been there done that. Running a 1938 John Deere D on kerosene is quite an experience. Most brands at the time at least offered options to burn kerosene, simply because it was so much cheaper. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-the-first-internal-combustion-engines-ran-on-kerosene/713816/16 "2015-03-02T05:15:36Z")
MY father likes to reminisce about a single cylinder kerosene powered engine that was used by the local carpenter to run his circular saw. This would have been in the 1930’s. It used a mechanical shutter to reveal a glow plug at the appropriate phase of the cycle. The glow plug was heated with a kerosene power blow lamp before the engine would start. Kerosene powered the British countryside at one time. No mains power, no anything much at all really.