# Why weren't University of Oklahoma students protected by the First Amendment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778 "2015-03-11T20:18:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/181 "2015-03-13T20:15:52Z")
I don’t think a chant about hanging black people from a tree qualifies as a fraternity prank. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/182 "2015-03-13T20:41:48Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I don’t think a chant about hanging black people from a tree qualifies as a fraternity prank. They didn’t hang anyone from a tree. They didn’t intend to hang anyone from a tree. They probably wouldn’t be in favor of hanging anyone from a tree. It was just a racist chant. Now don’t get me wrong, I’m kind of appalled that this is what passes for entertainment among the fraternities at the college I attended. But I don’t even think it rises to the level of a prank. I don’t think it was intended to incite anyone. I’m also a little unclear about who released it. Was it someone who thought, “Hey, this’ll be fun to see if it goes viral?” Or was it someone who thought, “Well, I’m gonna go along with this, but it’s wrong, and I’m gonna expose the perpetrators.” If the former, the person was really, really stupid. I went to OU decades ago, and while there were some racists in the state–and still are–the university and the city of Norman were, at least at the time, pretty much bastions of liberalism and equality. Whoever said that the majority of people in Oklahoma and Texas are racist is wrong, unless all of us who were in favor of equality etc. left (and I did leave, so I don’t know about the people who stayed). ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/183 "2015-03-13T20:55:29Z")
SAEs have retained [Timothy McVeigh’s attorney](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/03/13/reports-ous-sigma-alpha-epsilon-fraternity-plans-to-sue-the-university/) to 'assist them in evaluating" their legal options. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/184 "2015-03-13T21:10:59Z")
Who just happens to have been the Republican candidate for Senate years ago, defeated by the Democrat, Boren, who is now President of the university… getting interesting! ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/185 "2015-03-13T21:22:24Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Who just happens to have been the Republican candidate for Senate years ago, defeated by the Democrat, Boren, who is now President of the university… getting interesting! Now that’s intriguing. The Dallas home of the ring leader, Parker Rice, was [picketed by protesters](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dallas-home-of-university-of-oklahoma-student-who-led-racist-chant-draws-protesters/). ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/186 "2015-03-13T21:34:33Z")
This lawyer isn’t representing the two expelled students, but instead the chapter itself. The Washington Post article quoted him as saying that some of the students “have frankly been afraid to go to class.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/187 "2015-03-13T21:55:21Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > They didn’t hang anyone from a tree. They didn’t intend to hang anyone from a tree. They probably wouldn’t be in favor of hanging anyone from a tree. It was just a racist chant. > > Now don’t get me wrong, I’m kind of appalled that this is what passes for entertainment among the fraternities at the college I attended. But I don’t even think it rises to the level of a prank. You’re the one who said it was a prank: [QUOTEHilarity N. Suze] 3. By the time they get to that point they will be different people, and whether I would hire them would depend on who they are at the time–not what they did years ago as a fraternity prank. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/188 "2015-03-13T22:49:01Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > This lawyer isn’t representing the two expelled students, but instead the chapter itself. The Washington Post article quoted him as saying that some of the students “have frankly been afraid to go to class.” AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA now THAT, people, is irony. oh yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/189 "2015-03-13T22:51:44Z")
I hope those guys own something other than SAE sweatshirts and t-shirts to wear on campus. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/190 "2015-03-13T22:52:37Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > They didn’t hang anyone from a tree. They didn’t intend to hang anyone from a tree. They probably wouldn’t be in favor of hanging anyone from a tree. It was just a racist chant. > > Now don’t get me wrong, I’m kind of appalled that this is what passes for entertainment among the fraternities at the college I attended. But I don’t even think it rises to the level of a prank. I don’t think it was intended to incite anyone. > > I’m also a little unclear about who released it. Was it someone who thought, “Hey, this’ll be fun to see if it goes viral?” Or was it someone who thought, “Well, I’m gonna go along with this, but it’s wrong, and I’m gonna expose the perpetrators.” > > If the former, the person was really, really stupid. > > I went to OU decades ago, and while there were some racists in the state–and still are–the university and the city of Norman were, at least at the time, pretty much bastions of liberalism and equality. Whoever said that the majority of people in Oklahoma and Texas are racist is wrong, unless all of us who were in favor of equality etc. left (and I did leave, so I don’t know about the people who stayed). I get the feeling you and I have fairly different definitions of “liberalism” and “equality” and also “racism”. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/191 "2015-03-13T22:56:10Z")
Ironically, SAE (Sig Ep for those who went to a college with a Sig Ep chapter) is not the most racist national frat by reputation. Kappa Alpha, who chose Robert E. Lee as their “spiritual father” (LOL) probably takes that dubious honor. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/192 "2015-03-13T23:05:00Z")
I saw a couple of articles quoting students at the University of Oklahoma saying that there were more racist fraternities at the school. SAE just happened to get caught. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/193 "2015-03-13T23:13:02Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I saw a couple of articles quoting students at the University of Oklahoma saying that there were more racist fraternities at the school. SAE just happened to get caught. See, that’s too bad. Oh well. Leading a chant like that, versus just singing along, is pretty fucked-up, even if you’re a member of the 3rd-most-assholey group on campus, instead of first-most. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/194 "2015-03-13T23:17:25Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > I went to OU decades ago, and while there were some racists in the state–and still are–the university and the city of Norman were, at least at the time, pretty much bastions of liberalism and equality. Whoever said that the majority of people in Oklahoma and Texas are racist is wrong, unless all of us who were in favor of equality etc. left (and I did leave, so I don’t know about the people who stayed). The majority of Americans are either racist or hold some racist assumptions or impulses that affect their behavior or attitudes. Given that, I doubt that Texas and Oklahoma somehow benefit from being less than 50 percent racist, especially given the political trends. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/195 "2015-03-13T23:40:30Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > A little context would help. College freshmen are undergoing the transition to adulthood and cannot be said to have fully made it. These college freshmen are from Texas, where the norms of public discourse are a bit different from the North Atlantic states’ (remember the name of Rick Perry’s family ranch?). “The ‘N’ Word” is a bugaboo of the middle class and rolls off the tongues of the upper and lower crust with very little thought or consequence. And while the song was rehearsed, their status as fraternity pledges makes me suspect it was prompted by their older “brothers.” > > This is an opportunity for a teaching moment, and they are students. Expelling them outright to save the university’s clean reputation is a craven move. Masterful post. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/196 "2015-03-13T23:50:59Z")
Having a hard time seeing the expulsion as punishment, in the governmental sense of the word. Bear in mind, I do not think anyone should have been expelled over this incident. I wrote [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18201819&postcount=97) in another thread Somebody help me out here. How is the expulsion _punishment_? They do not have a _right_ to be a student at that University. It is a privilege. Many people apply (or want to apply) but are not accepted because they do not meet certain criteria, i.e, GPA, transcripts, ability to pay…I imagine at times students are rejected simply because there is no room for them. Those who are accepted are expected to behave in a certain way. One of those ways would be to not act in a way that embarrasses your school or casts them in a bad light. When I think of someone being punished, again, in the governmental sense of the word, I think incarceration and\or fines or other loss of rights. They have not lost income, I assume their tuition is being refunded, at least in part. They are free to apply at any other school. They may be rejected, but due to their own publicized behavior, not the school’s action. I assume they can appeal the school’s decision and possibly be reinstated later? What am I missing? [sub]no snark or gotcha…I always assume that I may have missed something[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/197 "2015-03-14T00:13:20Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Having a hard time seeing the expulsion as punishment, in the governmental sense of the word. > > Bear in mind, I do not think anyone should have been expelled over this incident. > I wrote [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18201819&postcount=97) in another thread > > Somebody help me out here. How is the expulsion _punishment_? They do not have a _right_ to be a student at that University. It is a privilege. Many people apply (or want to apply) but are not accepted because they do not meet certain criteria, i.e, GPA, transcripts, ability to pay…I imagine at times students are rejected simply because there is no room for them. Those who are accepted are expected to behave in a certain way. One of those ways would be to not act in a way that embarrasses your school or casts them in a bad light. > > When I think of someone being punished, again, in the governmental sense of the word, I think incarceration and\or fines or other loss of rights. They have not lost income, I assume their tuition is being refunded, at least in part. They are free to apply at any other school. They may be rejected, but due to their own publicized behavior, not the school’s action. I assume they can appeal the school’s decision and possibly be reinstated later? > > What am I missing? > [sub]no snark or gotcha…I always assume that I may have missed something[/sub] The short version is that the government cannot condition the receiving of a benefit on the waiver of a constitutional right. > **[Unconstitutional-Conditions Doctrine Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.](https://definitions.uslegal.com/u/unconstitutional-conditions-doctrine/)** > > Unconstitutional-conditions doctrine is a rule which describes that the government cannot condition a person's receipt of a governmental benefit on the waiver of a constitutionally protected right. Suppose OU had a policy of expelling students who were found to be Muslims. Would you say, “Hey, we aren’t putting them in jail, so where is the problem here”? ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/198 "2015-03-14T00:16:57Z")
You said yourself being a student there is a privilege. That privilege was taken away. Loss of privilege is definitely a form of punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/199 "2015-03-14T01:18:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The majority of Americans are either racist or hold some racist assumptions or impulses that affect their behavior or attitudes. The majority of Americans? While I have seen some studies/reports about certain areas of the country presenting a majority of some racist trait, I have not seen one indicating that the entire country has a majority of the population doing so. Would you happen to have a link handy for perusal/edification? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/200 "2015-03-14T01:31:16Z")
The government can withhold a privilege but the government cannot infringe your rights. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778.md?page=11)