# Why weren't University of Oklahoma students protected by the First Amendment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778 "2015-03-11T20:18:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/141 "2015-03-13T00:58:31Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > Whoa, boy, here’s your meds. Wipe the spittle off your face, eat dinner, have a good sleep, and come back to the issue when you’ve had a little more time to reflect. Restricted hate speech does not have to equal being turned over to the NSA. Why? That isn’t a rhetorical question. The offenders in this case were only publicized, politicized and punished as quickly and harshly as they were because of technology. If both smartphones and worldwide social media didn’t exist (just like 10 years ago, imagine that), no one outside of that bus would have ever even seen it or cared much about it. Social media is a very powerful thing and growing very quickly just like all of technology is. Its scope and reach will expand exponentially in the next few decades. That is why we need strong free speech protection more than ever. It isn’t just to protect the racists among us. It is for every person that holds a viewpoint that someone else considers offensive or provocative (almost everyone in other words). ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/142 "2015-03-13T01:09:13Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Why? That isn’t a rhetorical question. The offenders in this case were only publicized, politicized and punished as quickly and harshly as they were because of technology. If both smartphones and worldwide social media didn’t exist (just like 10 years ago, imagine that), no one outside of that bus would have ever even seen it or cared much about it. Social media is a very powerful thing and growing very quickly just like all of technology is. Its scope and reach will expand exponentially in the next few decades. > > That is why we need strong free speech protection more than ever. It isn’t just to protect the racists among us. It is for every person that holds a viewpoint that someone else considers offensive or provocative (almost everyone in other words). Keep your hate speech private, and there’s no issue. However, quite frankly, I think that it matters little if hate speech gets restricted at this point. It’s such a career-ender in this country for any job more important than janitor that, combined with the connected nature of the world, people are going to just give up on it, except for those who are marginalized/rural/etc… ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/143 "2015-03-13T01:10:01Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > To provide some more thorough backing since we are in GQ… > > Here’s the Supreme Court on the subject in _Papish v. Bd. of Curators of Univ. of Missouri_, 410 U.S. 667, 670 (1973): > > Here’s an example of a Court of Appeals applying that rule in _IOTA XI Chapter of Sigma Chi Fraternity v. George Mason Univ._, 993 F.2d 386, 393 (4th Cir. 1993): Thank you for these references. I may have overlooked some of the subsequent conversation amongst the recent hijacks, but Papish appears to be about decency standards, which I don’t think are being put forward by the university. Do we have any other Court of Appeals rulings that apply it? On that note, is there an easy way too do a “cited reference search” for these sorts of things, or would I need some fancy, paid database? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/144 "2015-03-13T01:29:17Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > Keep your hate speech private, and there’s no issue. However, quite frankly, I think that it matters little if hate speech gets restricted at this point. It’s such a career-ender in this country for any job more important than janitor that, combined with the connected nature of the world, people are going to just give up on it, except for those who are marginalized/rural/etc… The example in question _was_ technically private at least until someone recorded a snippet of it and uploaded it to social media where it went viral. It was a private bus chartered by a private fraternity going to a private event. That is part of the issue. Technology is killing the idea of any privacy at all. Individuals and private entities are perfectly free to use such transgressions against someone in any way they see fit but the Constitution strictly says that government agencies or arms of the government like state universities cannot. That is the ultimate law of the land and has to be respected until the Supreme Court decides otherwise. The lower courts have routinely upheld that right and people of many different political persuasions have fought hard to maintain it even if they didn’t agree with the words of the people that they were defending. Freedom of Speech is considered to be a fundamental human right in the U.S. Any transgressions on that freedom are an incredibly slippery slope with unknown but likely undesirable future consequences just like all far-reaching policies. Besides being an inalienable Constitutional right, many people make the practical argument that it is better to give people the freedom to let their real thoughts and motivations known rather than force them underground and I can’t argue with that. Suppressing free speech by force or intimidation does nothing to help alleviate the root causes of hate speech and it creates an additional adversarial battle where one isn’t necessary if you just let people state their view, no matter how distasteful, quite openly. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/145 "2015-03-13T01:35:09Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > The example in question _was_ technically private at least until someone recorded a snippet of it and uploaded it to social media where it went viral. It was a private bus chartered by a private fraternity going to a private event. That is part of the issue. Technology is killing the idea of any privacy at all. > > Individuals and private entities are perfectly free to use such transgressions against someone in any way they see fit but the Constitution strictly says that government agencies or arms of the government like state universities cannot. That is the ultimate law of the land and has to be respected until the Supreme Court decides otherwise. The lower courts have routinely upheld that right and people of many different political persuasions have fought hard to maintain it even if they didn’t agree with the words of the people that they were defending. Freedom of Speech is considered to be a fundamental human right in the U.S. Any transgressions on that freedom are an incredibly slippery slope with unknown but likely undesirable future consequences just like all far-reaching policies. > > Besides being an inalienable Constitutional right, many people make the practical argument that it is better to give people the freedom to let their real thoughts and motivations known rather than force them underground and I can’t argue with that. Suppressing free speech by force or intimidation does nothing to help alleviate the root causes of hate speech and it creates an additional adversarial battle where one isn’t necessary if you just let people state their view, no matter how distasteful, quite openly. I’m going to ignore your potential slippery slope fallacy and point out that 1. Social approbation is pretty powerful in many cases, and can do quite a bit on its own, however 2. If you normalize hate speech by allowing it to be legal, you make it easier for children to encounter it and adopt it ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/146 "2015-03-13T01:55:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’ll answer that after you produce a cite that the The Founders were only concerned with protecting speech against the government. The cynical side of me thinks that most of them were only concerned with getting Rhode Island and North Carolina to become part of the USA. Those states refused to come under the constitution unless there was a bill of rights. I suspect those who truly cared about the bill of rights substance did want, among other things, to protect racist speech from being forbidden by the federal government. However, it’s questionable whether any of them were concerned about racist speech from being forbidden by a state university. Their expectation would be been that universities are allowed to have their own disciplinary standards. It used to be the state universities were mostly funded by the state. That’s no longer true: [http://www.ou.edu/content/budget/general\_information/quick\_facts/jcr%3Acontent/contentpar/download\_2/file.res/FY2015%20SRA3%20Forms%20Schedule%20C.pdf](http://www.ou.edu/content/budget/general_information/quick_facts/jcr%3acontent/contentpar/download_2/file.res/FY2015%20SRA3%20Forms%20Schedule%20C.pdf) The University of Oklahoma president did act lawlessly in expelling the students. If the University is sued, I think it should tell the students than they don’t want them. But if the students insist on pushing themselves in where they are not wanted, it would be pointless to fight that. I don’t see them getting admittied anywhere else, so I suppose they will sue. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/147 "2015-03-13T02:04:09Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > The cynical side of me thinks that most of them were only concerned with getting Rhode Island and North Carolina to become part of the USA. Those states refused to come under the constitution unless there was a bill of rights. > > I suspect those who truly cared about the bill of rights substance did want, among other things, to protect racist speech from being forbidden by the federal government. > > However, it’s questionable whether any of them were concerned about racist speech from being forbidden by a state university. Their expectation would be been that universities are allowed to have their own disciplinary standards. > > It used to be the state universities were mostly funded by the state. That’s no longer true: > > [http://www.ou.edu/content/budget/general\_information/quick\_facts/jcr%3Acontent/contentpar/download\_2/file.res/FY2015%20SRA3%20Forms%20Schedule%20C.pdf](http://www.ou.edu/content/budget/general_information/quick_facts/jcr%3acontent/contentpar/download_2/file.res/FY2015%20SRA3%20Forms%20Schedule%20C.pdf) > > The University of Oklahoma president did act lawlessly in expelling the students. If the University is sued, I think it should tell the students than they don’t want them. But if the students insist on pushing themselves in where they are not wanted, it would be pointless to fight that. > > I don’t see them getting admittied anywhere else, so I suppose they will sue. They’ve already apologized, so I doubt they will sue. I’m sure there are a few private schools, like Bob Jones, that would take them. Or just let this die down for a couple years, maybe take some community college classes. There’s no way they’d want to go back to their school, though. Can you imagine how miserable that would be? Would they even pass a class? Maybe math or science, where answers are unambiguous, but you’ve got to pass some actual liberal arts courses to graduate. Why would any English instructor pass them? English departments are pretty heavy on the liberals, and these two dookied all over the university. Just dookied. ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/148 "2015-03-13T02:13:19Z")
As a subject of those two shitheads’ vitriol, forgive me for not giving a rat’s ass about their First Amendment rights. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/149 "2015-03-13T02:13:53Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > I’m sure there are a few private schools, like Bob Jones, that would take them. I thought of that. And I’m NOT sure. I suspect even Bob Jones wouldn’t want the resultant bad publicity, but we have to wait and see. > [@get\_lives](#): > > Would they even pass a class? Maybe math or science, where answers are unambiguous, but you’ve got to pass some actual liberal arts courses to graduate. Why would any English instructor pass them? Maybe you are right, but I would have thought that the great majority of university instructors attempt to put aside like and dislikes when grading. You are, in effect, accusing Oklahoma U’s English faculty of vigilante grading. I don’t see them doing that. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/150 "2015-03-13T03:06:17Z")
KFOR (OKC NBC affiliate) just reported that OU SAE chapter has retained attorney Stephen Jones, the man that defended Timothy McVeigh. He seems to have quite a varied practice. ---
**Author:** ![buddy431](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@buddy431](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddy431)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/151 "2015-03-13T03:11:45Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > I have a few questions for all you First Amendment citers in the thread: > > 1. If YOU had gotten caught doing this and were expelled (assuming for the moment you are college-aged NOW) would you sue? > > 2. If your CHILD had gotten caught and expelled, would you recommend they sue the university? > > 3. Would you hire either of these two students for a high profile position that required tact, judgment, and the ability to deal with people of different cultures and backgrounds? Yes, of course I would sue. I would look for a nice fat judgement. Not only could I get money out of the college, I could maybe hold the person who expelled me [personally liable](http://www.thefire.org/college-chief-personally-liable-for-abusing-students-rights/) for expelling me. I think people in this thread are overstating the harm that a lawsuit would do. There’s no way that a lawsuit would be bigger news than this has already received. People, for the most part, don’t care about legal proceedings. A lawsuit is not going to forever ruin their chance of finding employment. It will bring fat wads of cash. What’s not to like? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/152 "2015-03-13T03:40:47Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > I have a few questions for all you First Amendment citers in the thread: > > 1. If YOU had gotten caught doing this and were expelled (assuming for the moment you are college-aged NOW) would you sue? If I was kicked out of my student accommodation on two days notice because somebody else living in the same building is a bigot, I would sue. ---
**Author:** ![ricksummon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ricksummon/32/3333_2.png) [@ricksummon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricksummon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/153 "2015-03-13T04:36:39Z")
Does this mean that, for instance, sexual harassment laws don’t apply to federal and state government employers? If a male professor greets his female department head with a lewd joke every morning, do his free speech rights prevent her from firing him? ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/154 "2015-03-13T04:39:52Z")
Personally, I would rather see Anti-Racist Action and some radical allies show up, throw these privileged frat jerks off campus by any means necessary, and then hand the house over to a radical collective of lower-income students who might be housing-insecure, or perhaps some homeless LGBTQ folks kicked out by their reactionary Oklahoma parents, or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/155 "2015-03-13T05:17:24Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > A little context would help. College freshmen are undergoing the transition to adulthood and cannot be said to have fully made it. These college freshmen are from Texas, where the norms of public discourse are a bit different from the North Atlantic states’ (remember the name of Rick Perry’s family ranch?). “The ‘N’ Word” is a bugaboo of the middle class and rolls off the tongues of the upper and lower crust with very little thought or consequence. And while the song was rehearsed, their status as fraternity pledges makes me suspect it was prompted by their older “brothers.” > > This is an opportunity for a teaching moment, and they are students. Expelling them outright to save the university’s clean reputation is a craven move. Excellent post. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/156 "2015-03-13T05:39:03Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > They’ve already apologized, so I doubt they will sue. I’m sure there are a few private schools, like Bob Jones, that would take them. Or just let this die down for a couple years, maybe take some community college classes. There’s no way they’d want to go back to their school, though. Can you imagine how miserable that would be? Would they even pass a class? Maybe math or science, where answers are unambiguous, but you’ve got to pass some actual liberal arts courses to graduate. Why would any English instructor pass them? English departments are pretty heavy on the liberals, and these two dookied all over the university. Just dookied. Holy shit. Thais is the exact problem. The school should not be able to punish students for constitutionally protected speech. But because you personally object to their speech, well, wink-wink-nod-nod, let’s just see them try to get a fair shake when it comes to their actual studies. Wow. I find that attitude even more offensive that two idiots on a fraternity bus singing a vile song the dumb fraternity probably has been singing for decades. ---
**Author:** ![Celan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@Celan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/157 "2015-03-13T10:47:47Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > It’s a teachable moment, and all of Texas needs a lesson. Stop saying the n-word. Stop acting like black people don’t matter. If you can’t clean your mind and heart, at least clean your discourse. All of Texas? How about addressing racists and racism and not spreading more misinformation, ignorance based stereotypes and hate in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/158 "2015-03-13T12:54:03Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > If I was kicked out of my student accommodation on two days notice because somebody else living in the same building is a bigot, I would sue. Greek-letter organizations are not just “student accommodation”. The penalty against the individual students is questionable, but there is absolutely no question that the university has the authority to shut down the house. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/159 "2015-03-13T12:55:01Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I don’t agree with that; fraternities are in a sort of intermediate state; not quite completely separate from the university and not quite fully part of the university. When it comes to this issue which deals with what a government agency is allowed to do under the constitution they are certainly not part of the university. Many private organizations are allowed to operate on college campuses. That does not mean the university in charge of any of them. > [@AtomicDog](#): > > As a subject of those two shitheads’ vitriol, forgive me for not giving a rat’s ass about their First Amendment rights. Unobjectionable speech is very easy to defend. No one ever had to fight to be able to say “Have a nice day.” But no one is forcing you to care about them. That is your right as well. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778/160 "2015-03-13T13:28:40Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > Whoa, boy, here’s your meds. Wipe the spittle off your face, eat dinner, have a good sleep, and come back to the issue when you’ve had a little more time to reflect. Restricted hate speech does not have to equal being turned over to the NSA. Too much. Insults are not allowed in Great Debates. Warning issued. Don’t do it again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-werent-university-of-oklahoma-students-protected-by-the-first-amendment/714778.md?page=9)