# Why where cops better in the 80's and 90's? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-where-cops-better-in-the-80s-and-90s/689114 "2014-05-23T17:52:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-where-cops-better-in-the-80s-and-90s/689114/61 "2014-05-24T18:29:36Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I’m not really adding anything by saying this but: > > More people have cameras now, so when a cop does something abusive or criminal it is more likely to get recorded and shown nationwide. The media can create an environment of delusion. For example, many americans think crime and war are getting worse, when they are actually getting better compared to the past. It is just that the media covers crime and war more, creating the illusion that these problems are worse. > > Having said that, the war on drugs and the war on terrorism, combined with a lot of vets who are experienced in working in a war zone, then coming home and trying to become cops despite those jobs not being the same likely make the police a lot more paramilitary and aggressive in nature. The % of people who have been arrested or convicted is much much higher than in the past. The police devote huge chunks of their existence to arresting the mentally ill and drug users, something they didn’t do nearly as much in the past. Due to the drug war, the ‘war’ on the mentally ill, etc the police have become more nakedly hostile and confrontational towards those society deems of little value. Non-whites, the poor, the sick, the young, etc. > > Here are a couple of books worth reading on the subject. > > [Breaking Rank: A Top Cop's Exposé of the Dark Side of American Policing: Stamper, Norm: 9781560258551: Amazon.com: Books](http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Rank-Expos%C3%A9-American-Policing/dp/1560258551/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1400939896&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=norm+stampler) > > [Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces: Balko, Radley: 9781610392112: Amazon.com: Books](http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Warrior-Cop-Militarization-Americas/dp/1610392116/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_y) > > Also keep in mind the rates of domestic violence among non cops is about 10%. Among cops it is 24-40+%. > > [http://www.womenandpolicing.org/violenceFS.asp](http://www.womenandpolicing.org/violenceFS.asp) > > So it isn’t an illusion to think cops are more violent, they take that violence home with them. Than vote the libertarian party in power. You can thank the liberals and conservatives for getting ideas from communism and fascism.Big government and we have to run or control things.Tell people what they can or cannot do base on my political party line ideas. In the past it was if you do crime to others than you do the time.The federal government role was military ,defense and immigration not following political party line ideas. You can thank the prison industrial complex when prisons became government institutions on party line ideas. You in jail you not wearing a seat belts ,you smoke drugs ,you are a street hooker ,you not waring wearing life jackets , you have no car insurance ,minor theft. Officers arresting power has branched out than crooks and violent offenders to being part of the government institutions on party line ideas. If such a government passed laws no red jack wearing on the weekend :eek::eek::eek: officers would not think otherwise of making arrests on that. Hack some places they are arresting people on sagging pants and baggy pants.You can thank the liberals and conservatives for getting ideas from communism and fascism and make up any law base on party line ideas big government. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-where-cops-better-in-the-80s-and-90s/689114/62 "2014-05-24T18:48:24Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > But what I was getting at is the new trend of officers being stressed out or frustrated and taking it out on non criminals and public safety fire/EMS so on. > > When officers arrest news reporters , fire or EMS it makes big news.I don’t remember officers doing that in the past like today. You have latched onto the case of the fireman/EMS and think it represents a major shift in police attitudes. There’s no evidence so far that this never happened in the past or that it happens with any frequency now. The fact that you didn’t see any of these reports in the past can easily be explained by the shift in news reporting, the proliferation of cameras, and a change in the public acceptance. You are still back at square one; trying to identify if something has changed. Before you ask why something happens you need to establish that it is in fact happening. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-where-cops-better-in-the-80s-and-90s/689114/63 "2014-05-24T18:53:15Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > You have latched onto the case of the fireman/EMS and think it represents a major shift in police attitudes. There’s no evidence so far that this never happened in the past or that it happens with any frequency now. The fact that you didn’t see any of these reports in the past can easily be explained by the shift in news reporting, the proliferation of cameras, and a change in the public acceptance. > > You are still back at square one; trying to identify if something has changed. Before you ask why something happens you need to establish that it is in fact happening. No the media may be bias to police being very pro police.But fireman/EMS and reports are other thing…This makes the front hit line. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-where-cops-better-in-the-80s-and-90s/689114/64 "2014-05-24T19:23:45Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > You have latched onto the case of the fireman/EMS and think it represents a major shift in police attitudes. There’s no evidence so far that this never happened in the past or that it happens with any frequency now. The fact that you didn’t see any of these reports in the past can easily be explained by the shift in news reporting, the proliferation of cameras, and a change in the public acceptance. > > You are still back at square one; trying to identify if something has changed. Before you ask why something happens you need to establish that it is in fact happening. No the media may be bias to police being very pro police.But fireman/EMS and reports are other thing.This makes the front page. It still does not explain police wearing longer hair ,glasses and mustage is **no no now.** Now police must look like military type or hulk like. These officers appearance and behavior would not be allowed in the UK or Canada. https://www.youtube.com/embed/p51PGX-PrqQ?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque Cop arrests TV news reporter and camera crew https://www.youtube.com/embed/LbQUltNOqo8?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque Cop Puts Cameraman In Chokehold for Filming Peaceful Protest [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/LSsGrIf8F0M/hqdefault.jpg "Cop Puts Cameraman In Chokehold for Filming Peaceful Protest") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSsGrIf8F0M) RESIST ILLEGAL ORDERS- EXERT YOUR GOD GIVEN RIGHTS [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/PzVOuj8UFr4/hqdefault.jpg "It's NOT Illegal to Film Cops. RESIST ILLEGAL ORDERS- EXERT YOUR GOD GIVEN RIGHTS") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzVOuj8UFr4) ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-where-cops-better-in-the-80s-and-90s/689114/65 "2014-05-24T20:02:16Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > Than vote the libertarian party in power. You can thank the liberals and conservatives for getting ideas from communism and fascism.Big government and we have to run or control things.Tell people what they can or cannot do base on my political party line ideas. > > In the past it was if you do crime to others than you do the time.The federal government role was military ,defense and immigration not following political party line ideas. > > You can thank the prison industrial complex when prisons became government institutions on party line ideas. You in jail you not wearing a seat belts ,you smoke drugs ,you are a street hooker ,you not waring wearing life jackets , you have no car insurance ,minor theft. > > Officers arresting power has branched out than crooks and violent offenders to being part of the government institutions on party line ideas. > > If such a government passed laws no red jack wearing on the weekend :eek::eek::eek: officers would not think otherwise of making arrests on that. > > Hack some places they are arresting people on sagging pants and baggy pants.You can thank the liberals and conservatives for getting ideas from communism and fascism and make up any law base on party line ideas big government. I do vote almost strictly libertarian for positions related to law enforcement (sheriff, prosecutor, judge). I don’t know if it matters though since that is a minor party. I don’t agree with libertarians on economic policy so I only vote for them on L.E. related platforms. Part of the problem is that the beast of L.E. has become so big it has to justify its existence by creating an endless pool of criminals and creating draconian fines and punishments. Something like 40% of men have been arrested by age 23. They keep making more and more things a crime, and creating more and more of a surveillance state to justify their jobs. This gives them lobbying power, which leads to more things being criminalized. This book > **[Arrest-Proof Yourself: Carson, Dale, Denham, Wes: 9781613748046: Amazon.com:...](https://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Dale-Carson/dp/1613748043)** > > Arrest-Proof Yourself \[Carson, Dale, Denham, Wes\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Arrest-Proof Yourself Was written by an ex-FBI agent who got disgusted with the fact that the purpose of law enforcement is to justify its bloated existence by criminalizing more and more of regular life, not protect people. He outlines minor lifestyle changes to drastically reduce your chances of interacting with the law. Its the best people can do right now. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-where-cops-better-in-the-80s-and-90s/689114/66 "2014-05-24T20:24:40Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I would really like to see some actual evidence that cops are any worse or better now than they were in the 80’s and 90’s. Having lived through those decades, I can assure you there were plenty of asshole police around. Some of the more famous ones have already been mentioned. The only things I can think of that are different, which have already been brought up are: > > Increasing militarization and SWAT style tactics. > > Tasers and other “less than lethal” weapons. > > More video, which means that when police abuse their authority, it’s more likely to be seen. > But as individuals, I don’t think Cops are any better or worse than they’ve always been. If anyone thinks they are, hopefully they have some evidence. There was a time where SWAT was used for hostage crisis and barricaded suspects.Now many police department are calling out SWAT on gun calls and knife calls. The SWAT is being used more and more. The Filming Cops in public seem be new trend.I don’t remember police getting so worked up over this 5 year ago. Many youtube clips of cops and Filming in public like they are hiding some thing. cops Demanding ID is other thing. Filming in public leads to local arrest [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/wp0K0upTd14/maxresdefault.jpg "Filming in public leads to local arrest") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp0K0upTd14) Angry Texas Cop Demands ID [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/zdNO10dNqKA/hqdefault.jpg "Angry Texas Cop Demands ID") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdNO10dNqKA) Arrest for Filming Cops in San Diego Again https://www.youtube.com/embed/nFhL5yWP7tk?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque Police officer apologize for citizen filming arrest in public. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/6YDCR43OLLU/maxresdefault.jpg "Police officer apologize for citizen filming arrest in public.") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YDCR43OLLU) Wife of man killed by San Diego police officer angered by District Attorney’s ruling [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEp6PDvFtks](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEp6PDvFtks) What is with them today. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-where-cops-better-in-the-80s-and-90s/689114/67 "2014-05-25T02:39:19Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > What is with them today. The same thing that was with them 50 years ago. You keep posting links to incidents. Find data that supports your hypothetical first, then worry about the finding the best cases to illustrate your point. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-where-cops-better-in-the-80s-and-90s/689114/68 "2014-05-25T17:57:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I expect it’s the ongoing moral & institutional corruption resulting from decades of the cops being able to get away with anything without consequences. Since that shows no sign of changing you can expect them to get worse before they get better, if they ever do. Close but no cigar. It’s from decades of kids being raised on violence and a permissive society. If a kid manages to grow up and stay out of jail as he does, then when he gets on the cops, this kind of behavior is almost to be expected. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-where-cops-better-in-the-80s-and-90s/689114/69 "2014-05-25T20:08:25Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > The same thing that was with them 50 years ago. You keep posting links to incidents. Find data that supports your hypothetical first, then worry about the finding the best cases to illustrate your point. Of course you can’t really go by TV shows and youtube.In the past people had no cameras like today ( no youtube) and the cops would probably beat you up or take you to woods and leave you to die:eek::eek::eek:than take you to jail. One of reason cops hate the cameras is it shows them doing wrong. The TV show cops on fox or cops on spike is not that good because they can act good on camera but off camera treat you like garbage.In any case the way they act on TV show cops on fox so called good side manners in front of the camera is less desirable. The cops on fox in south west US seem more hyped up and get excited easy.Well cops on fox in south east US seem calmer and friendlier with the exemption of Florida. There was TV show jail on true TV the cops in jail in Las Vegas jailhouse where horrible compared to Portland jailhouse.The cops in Portland jail seem much better. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-where-cops-better-in-the-80s-and-90s/689114/70 "2014-05-27T02:36:04Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Ever heard of Rodney King? Amadou Diallo? And who was that guy the NYPD cops anally raped with a sink plunger or something? > > Ahh, the golden past!:rolleyes: > [@Marley23](#): > > Abner Louima. Aaand there’s part of the answer. The proportion of the populace which can be classified as “subhuman minority so very extremely far from the ruling class that it is effectively open season on them” is apparently increasing. A bigger part may be this: Police forces were originally instituted to bring a professionalism into law enforcement. This has a good side (taking power away from lynch mobs) and a bad side (putting police power in the hands of those employed by a wealthy ruling class). But they were accepted at all because they offered a more controlled, more responsible, and sometimes more ethical system of policing. (On the other hand, when some of them started out, they basically picked a street gang and recruited from them.) Once the authority of the professional police is taken for granted, things tend to go bad. Over time, police forces can begin more and more to attract the sort of person who makes a horrible police officer. But here’s the good news! This has happened before. And what happened in response was a revolution in jurisprudence to diminish police brutality. And then there was a counter-revolution, that got us to today. Possibly the signature plank of the political conservative counter-revolution from the 1970’s on was “stop coddling criminals.” Thus, dismantling the ability of the courts to protect the accused, dismantling the tendency to rein in the police, giving private citizens vast authority to engage in vigilante kills, making prisons hellishly unpleasant, and making prison sentences disproportionately long. It’s the politics of hatred and sadism, and it’s hellishly popular. The Republicans have won everything vital for a generation on the backs of raining leaden hell on “criminals” and “thugs.” And the worm will turn again, because in order to become the masters of this hell they devised, they had to become devils, and now the police are more and more seen as the real criminals and thugs. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-where-cops-better-in-the-80s-and-90s/689114/71 "2014-05-27T02:59:11Z")
In my direct experience the vast majority of police are upstanding people. The bad ones I’ve come in contact with cannot be removed because of the unions they belong to. I can think of 2 in my multi-county area that are disliked by the public and their fellow officers yet they can’t be fired. They’re literally loaded guns waiting to go off and there’s nothing that can be done until their actions are so actionable as to allow for their dismissal. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-where-cops-better-in-the-80s-and-90s/689114/72 "2014-05-27T08:45:38Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > Of course you can’t really go by TV shows and youtube.\ And yet the only evidence you provide for your claims are Youtube snippets. A few observations: 1. You are repeatedly making hasty generalizations and are highly subject to confirmation bias. [QUOTE=sweat209] Many youtube clips of cops and Filming in public like they are hiding some thing. [/QUOTE] Setting aside the borderline incomprehensible grammar, this is an example of confirmation bias and cherry picking evidence. People are filming cops more often because in past decades people didn’t have cell phone cameras. Further, the clips that make it onto Youtube will show cops doing the wrong thing because nobody would bother posting a video of cops being nice and courteous. Same thing goes with the news… they don’t report the number of police interactions that result in happy outcomes. [QUOTE=sweat209] So may be the problem is liberal media ,government and police chief where cops are scared to bring out the baton in street fight ,bar fight or guy resisting now or to shoot guy armed with out saying 5 or 10 times drop the gun or knife that they are stressed out and frustrated and taking it out on non criminals and public safety fire/EMS and public service now days. [/QUOTE] You haven’t provided quantifiable evidence that police are attacking non-criminals with increasing frequency. Further, you are making the assumption that the people police used to club and shoot were, in fact, ‘bad guys.’ How do you know they were not clubbing and shooting non-criminals? You haven’t shown any evidence that police were better at discriminating the criminals from the non-criminals in the past. Also, you repeatedly flip-flop on whether violence is a good thing or not, as I will demonstrate below. 2) You are appealing to emotion rather than laying out your evidence. [QUOTE=sweat209] In the past people had no cameras like today ( no youtube) and the cops would probably beat you up or take you to woods and leave you to die:eek::eek::eek:than take you to jail. [/QUOTE] You are making an accusation without evidence. You are attempting to cultivate fear on what you assume “probably” happened, but you have not provided quantifiable evidence that the incidence of extrajudicial killings is higher or lower than today. Your only real purpose here appears to be increasing fear and prejudice towards the opposing side. 1. Your arguments are inconsistent. [QUOTE=sweat209] The TV show cops on fox or cops on spike is not that good because they can act good on camera but off camera treat you like garbage.In any case the way they act on TV show cops on fox so called good side manners in front of the camera is less desirable… [/QUOTE] This is an inconsistency. You are discounting evidence that contradicts your claim. Further you are creating unsupported assumptions about what the cops do off camera. Please present quantified evidence that cops on-camera behavior is different from their off-camera behavior [QUOTE=sweat209] There was TV show jail on true TV the cops in jail in Las Vegas jailhouse where horrible compared to Portland jailhouse.The cops in Portland jail seem much better. [/QUOTE] Another inconsistency. You are skeptical of cops who behave well on camera, but here you take the Portland cops at face value. Why is one TV show reliable and the other not reliable? If your claim is true, then wouldn’t the cops in Portland treat people like garbage when they are off-camera? [QUOTE=sweat209] In the past people had no cameras like today ( no youtube) and the cops would probably beat you up or take you to woods and leave you to die:eek::eek::eek:than take you to jail. [/QUOTE] This statement is also inconsistent and undermines your original premise, which I understand to be that cops are increasingly indiscriminate, perpetrate more misconduct, and go “gangsta style.” If cops in the past were more likely to resort to extrajudicial violence, how can you claim cops are more violent today? If anything, this seems to be an admission that cops today are less violent than cops in the past, who you claim would beat people up in the woods. Further, you blame the “liberal media” for making cops scared of using their batons or firearms, claiming that this increases their frustration and aggression towards non-criminals. In this, and several other points you appear to be in favor of violence, and yet here you appear against it. Please resolve this contradiction. 1. More statements without evidence: [QUOTE=sweat209] There was a time where SWAT was used for hostage crisis and barricaded suspects.Now many police department are calling out SWAT on gun calls and knife calls. The SWAT is being used more and more. [/QUOTE] a) You have not provided evidence that the use of SWAT has increased. b) Assuming the use of SWAT has increased, you have not linked this to police brutality. Does the use of SWAT result in worse outcomes? Why should police attempt to fight someone armed with a gun or knife, when a specialized unit is available? It seems foolish to me. I would assume the use of SWAT results in fewer casualties to police and civilians. You need to provide evidence that the opposite is true. [QUOTE=sweat209] In the 80’s and 90’ cops where more casual they know who the bad guy was and who was not.In the 80’s and 90’ **it was more clear he has a gun or knife shoot him** you not social worker to talk him down.You get in street fight ,bar fight or guy resisting no question out comes the baton. [/QUOTE] Another inconsistency. You state that modern police are more likely to “talk him down” i.e. resolve a situation without violence. This is incompatible with your claim that police are increasingly brutal and indiscriminate. [QUOTE=sweat209] Now many police department are calling out SWAT **on gun calls and knife calls.** [/QUOTE] I’ve added emphasis here because you are making two contradictory claims. In the paragraph above you appear to support the use of force against people armed with guns and knives. And yet here you claim that SWAT should not be used on people armed with guns and knives. Please resolve this contradiction. Conclusion: I have to agree with the posters above that your arguments are fallacious, unsupported by anything other than anecdotal evidence, self-contradictory, and appeal to emotion rather than fact. You might do better if you started citing quantifiable metrics that demonstrate changes in police behavior over time. Right now it is difficult to even follow a consistent argument from one post to the next, and the only thing I can say with any certainty is that some Youtube videos made you mad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-where-cops-better-in-the-80s-and-90s/689114.md?page=3)