# Why Windows 8 is a failure. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 24, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269 "2013-05-24T22:24:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/61 "2013-05-26T01:35:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > An OS that can handle touch and keyboard/mouse input with equal ease is not just a good idea, it’s soon going to be a necessity. Really? Then I guess I am out of touch with the state of the art in computers. I wasn’t aware they developed new powers. I thought that if I bought a computer without touch screen capability (like I did last month) it would never have touch screen capability. And that consequently I would never need a touch screen based OS on this computer even if I used it for the next ten years. But now I know better. My computer is only in its larva stage. Soon its touch screen capability will emerge and all the touch screen based features that were installed on it will no longer be completely useless. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/62 "2013-05-26T02:55:19Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Maybe, but does that ever happen? Sounds like an imaginary problem. It does to me. I can’t explain it exactly, but I just don’t like the start menu blocking everything else. It’s more distracting somehow. But I might get used to it quickly if I used Windows 8 much (my laptop has 7 and my daughter’s has 8, so I only use it when I’m doing something to her computer). And I’m usually switching back and forth between several things, so when I was in the apps, I hated having them full screen. I still don’t know how to close the apps (I can exit them, just not close) but I’m sure I would figure it out if I spent more than a minute trying to. I just think if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it, and I like my start menu. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/63 "2013-05-26T04:57:29Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > I still don’t know how to close the apps If you bring your cursor up to the upper left corner of your screen, it’ll open a little image showing you any apps that are running. If you right click your mouse, it’ll open up a window to close them. ---
**Author:** ![chewsick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6f9a4e/32.png) [@chewsick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chewsick)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/64 "2013-05-26T05:08:46Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > It does to me. I can’t explain it exactly, but I just don’t like the start menu blocking everything else. It’s more distracting somehow. Thank you. Me too. I have a new netbook bought for a single purpose – browsing the web when my other netbook or tablet is getting repaired. Classic Shell is it. I have another Windows 7 license I could use on this new OEM-installed Win8, but I don’t have the spare disk space to risk losing data. Full screen does not work. Mouse/touchpad/whatever doesn’t work – I need to use everything via control keys I already know, and while WIN+D and stuff is fine, I don’t have the ability to learn a whole new set of commands. I don’t “click” with the “mouse” to do things, even if I have to hit the file open key and use the cursors at great expense. See, I use Emacs, so my brain is full. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/65 "2013-05-26T06:38:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Really? Then I guess I am out of touch with the state of the art in computers. I wasn’t aware they developed new powers. I thought that if I bought a computer without touch screen capability (like I did last month) it would never have touch screen capability. And that consequently I would never need a touch screen based OS on this computer even if I used it for the next ten years. > > But now I know better. My computer is only in its larva stage. Soon its touch screen capability will emerge and all the touch screen based features that were installed on it will no longer be completely useless. Microsoft are not going to develop a separate OS just for you. There are already laptops with touch screen capabilities, and with removable screens that act like tablets, and I suspect these will become more common over the next few years. Quite why you expect them to not have a decent OS because you don’t want to use all the features of it is beyond me. One innovation I expect to see soon, and which you would be able to use, would be the ability to see your start screen on your phone or tablet, basically using that as an extra screen just for the start menu. You would be able to use that, even if your laptop doesn’t magically grow touch capabilities. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/66 "2013-05-26T12:40:02Z")
I’ll admit I’m still fumbling with a couple of things in Windows 8 but I’ve been using it for a total of 4 days now. My first laptop computer used DOS 2.0 and I have probably used every single MS OS released between then and now. And there’s always a little bit of a learning curve, you spend a week or so reflexively going for something that isn’t located there anymore. And this goes double for the programs…both standard and proprietary… that are rewritten every couple of years even though the underlying task remains basically the same. And the new program has always been better once I jumped the learning curve. OK, I never owned a computer with Vista during the time when that one was standard I ordered the machines with “downgrades”. It’s just a matter of adapting ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/67 "2013-05-26T12:52:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Microsoft are not going to develop a separate OS just for you. I wouldn’t expect them to. But they already have developed separate operating systems for the millions of people that don’t have touch screen computers. Or who simply want to stay with a system they already know how to use. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/68 "2013-05-26T13:13:00Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Or who simply want to stay with a system they already know how to use. So stay with the system you had. I assume, though, there’s a reason you upgraded, and I further assume it’s because your previous system didn’t do what you wanted it to. As **Ann Hedonia** correctly says, there’s always a learning period with new software, but it seems that, for whatever reason, you would rather complain about minor details (and yes, the user interface is a minor detail, as it’s trivial to change) rather than learn to use it properly. If for whatever reason you don’t want to install a third party Start menu, just pin an Explorer shortcut to the Start folder to the left of your taskbar. It won’t have quite the functionality, but will save you having to learn how to use mouse and keyboard to navigate the start screen. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/69 "2013-05-26T14:41:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I wouldn’t expect them to. But they already have developed separate operating systems for the millions of people that don’t have touch screen computers. Or who simply want to stay with a system they already know how to use. Microsoft is betting on touchscreen becoming more and more common, possibly ubiquitous, within the next few years - they’re not going to wait for this to happen before they introduce features that take advantage of touch. That’s all that has happened - they have released an OS with features that _can be used_ with touch. It’s an option. In a similar sort of way, in Windows 2.0, mouse input was an option. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/70 "2013-05-26T15:09:18Z")
> [@Silophant](#): > > I honestly don’t get the complaints about the start screen in Windows 8. The most common one seems to be “it takes you out of what you’re working on.” **Are most people in W7 working on an Excel spreadsheet or whatever, and then navigating the start menu’s nested interface while still focusing entirely on the spreadsheet?** If not, and you’re focusing on the start menu while you’re using it, why is it a bad thing that the start menu now takes up the entire screen and has bigger buttons? It still goes back to the exact same desktop once you’ve selected your program. That’s certainly how I work. Do you really think many people are any different? You said yourself, the reason it’s a problem is because it interrupts what we’re working on. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/71 "2013-05-26T17:51:57Z")
I assembled my latest computer and sprung for Windows 8 and a Logitech rechargeable touchpad. I made a good faith effort over two or three days to learn it, and now I simply cannot fathom how anyone could miss the start button. In a few keystrokes or swipes I can do just about anything. No icon clutter, no navigating through menus, none of the usual detritus. I’d get rid of the desktop altogether at this point if I could. There are so many complaints that it is “unintuitive”. But intuition is trained like anything else. Once you know a few techniques, it’s very easy to learn and guess the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/72 "2013-05-26T17:55:56Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Windows XP: Start\>Programs\>Accessories\>Calculator > > Windows 8: Start(button)\>C\>A\>L\>Click > > I guess a mix of three keystrokes and one mouse click is marginally less efficient than four mouse clicks, but if you need things closer to hand than that, you pin them to the start screen, the taskbar or create a desktop shortcut. > > If Windows 8 is a failure, it’s because people are so ingrained in the habit of clicking through a hierarchical mess of folders and subfolders for everything, and can’t deal with change. For what it’s worth, you can get to the calculator in fewer keystrokes. WIN + Q brings up the All Apps panel and a search bar. So WIN-Q and either start typing or just choose the Calculator from the list of applications. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/73 "2013-05-26T23:45:21Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > That’s certainly how I work. Do you really think many people are any different? You said yourself, the reason it’s a problem is because it interrupts what we’re working on. so, you’re going to tell me that when you open the start menu to look for something, you’re really actually focused on your Excel sheet rather than what it is you’re trying to find in the start menu? Color me skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/74 "2013-05-27T01:09:33Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Microsoft is betting on touchscreen becoming more and more common, possibly ubiquitous, within the next few years - they’re not going to wait for this to happen before they introduce features that take advantage of touch. That’s all that has happened - they have released an OS with features that _can be used_ with touch. It’s an option. > > In a similar sort of way, in Windows 2.0, mouse input was an option. As I said above, I think it would have been a smart move for Microsoft to introduce Windows 8 on its new Surface tablets. It would have been a good fit - a new touch screen OS on a new touch screen computer. The two new products would have helped sell each other. The mistake Microsoft made was to insist on replacing Windows 7 with Windows 8 on non-touch screen PC’s and laptops. This was a dumb idea. They replaced an OS that was designed for non-touch screen computers with an OS primarily designed for touch screens. They put Windows 8 in the wrong environment for it and the result is Windows 8 looks bad in comparison to Windows 7. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/75 "2013-05-27T01:20:44Z")
I don’t have an opinion on W8, but I don’t need a dedicated calculator program, either. Google (or Chrome) has a calculator. Type arithmetic into the address bar and the solution displays as you add expressions. Does not work with whatever version of IE I use for work, though. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/76 "2013-05-27T01:24:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The mistake Microsoft made was to insist on replacing Windows 7 with Windows 8 on non-touch screen PC’s and laptops. click on the “Desktop” tile and Windows 8 looks for all the world like Windows 7. If you can’t manage that one simple task, there’s nothing in the world I can say to you that will make you feel better. > [@](#): > > This was a dumb idea. They replaced an OS that was designed for non-touch screen computers with an OS primarily designed for touch screens. They put Windows 8 in the wrong environment for it and the result is Windows 8 looks bad in comparison to Windows 7. Windows 8 is not “primarily designed for touchscreens.” It has an app environment suitable for touchscreens, and some tweaks in its legacy personality to make it less terrible for use on a touchscreen. And this is the key point. A UI designed for touch can reasonably be used with a keyboard and mouse (it’s true, I’ve used a keyboard & mouse with my Android tablet) but a legacy UI built around KB & M sucks when trying to use it by touch. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/77 "2013-05-27T01:54:20Z")
OK, if anyone seriously still can’t find the calculator on Windows 8: _Is your calculator gone? Well, there most be something wrong You can pin it to your start screen, You can pin it to your taskbar, You can make a desktop shortcut, You can take it for a haircut, If your calculator’s gone._ ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/78 "2013-05-27T04:47:45Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > so, you’re going to tell me that when you open the start menu to look for something, you’re really actually focused on your Excel sheet rather than what it is you’re trying to find in the start menu? Yes. For example, when I have a live conference open on the top half of the screen, I may be quickly using the rest of the screen to navigate to and use required programs, folders, and files. The search is informed by seeing things live. The start menu (which takes up less than half the screen vertically, and does not cover the conference at all) is useful because it allows instant access to frequently used programs, folders, files, and searching, all without covering anything on the top half of the screen. It would be completely absurd to cover up something happening live in order to open programs, folders, files, and searches. It is also absurd to needlessly cover anything, but this is what affects me the most. Windows 8 takes us back to the bad old days of using desktop icons to launch things (the start screen is basically a desktop background, and clicking to the start screen is “show desktop”) and having to have the whole background showing to see everything. But times have changed. We have advanced way past the Windows 8 way of doing things. Monitors are bigger. There are solutions that don’t take up a full screen. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/79 "2013-05-27T06:05:30Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > click on the “Desktop” tile and Windows 8 looks for all the world like Windows 7. If you can’t manage that one simple task, there’s nothing in the world I can say to you that will make you feel better. > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > OK, if anyone seriously still can’t find the calculator on Windows 8: I guess reading the OP was too complicated for you guys. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/80 "2013-05-27T06:33:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I guess reading the OP was too complicated for you guys. We can read just fine. You obviously don’t know how to do it because you think it is complicated or somehow inconvenient. You know what I do? I click a button on my taskbar. Just like I did on Windows 7. One click is not inconvenient. And the way to get the calculator before pinning it to the task bar is exactly the same. I click the start button (which is there, just hidden) and type “calc” and press enter. Or, if you are phobic of the keyboard, you can just click the tile which will be on the start screen’s first page. Both of these are exactly the same as was available in Windows 7. The only difference is that you have to know the start button is at the bottom corner, instead of seeing it all the time. I have problems with Windows 8, too, but yours is completely stupid, unless you don’t know how to bring up the calculator on Windows 7 in the most efficient way. We’re being nice by assuming you didn’t know how to do it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269.md?page=5)