# Why Windows 8 is a failure. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 24, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269 "2013-05-24T22:24:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/101 "2013-05-28T20:20:18Z")
When is 8.1 supposed to be released? Will it be a free thing like the service packs or do you have to pay extra for it? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/102 "2013-05-28T20:22:03Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > The salespeople in the stores focus heavily on touch. They were promoting this heavily. Of course they are - touch (on a desktop/laptop) is a newish thing that gadget-oriented people might find exciting, and touchscreen computers sell at higher pricepoints - why _wouldn’t_ they be promoting it? Still doesn’t make Windows 8 a touch-dependent OS. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/103 "2013-05-28T20:22:28Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > I find it surprising that people on this board can on one hand think they’re the smartest people on the internet, while on the other hand have such difficulty with the notion that other people might not have the same opinion on something. You realize it’s not just me who disagrees with out about the issues with Windows 8, but it’s Microsoft’s own executives? > [@](#): > > 1. you don’t have to “learn a new OS.” I keep repeating that the instant you go to the Desktop (which is represented by a nice big honking tile prominently on the Start screen) you’re in something that looks pretty much like Windows 7. Yes, the sales rep showed me this as the very first thing. It was clearly something she had been trained to do in an effort to do damage control because the dramatic changes are too much for many users. I work in software, I work with UX designers and front end developers all day. I have no trouble using something new and when I buy a Win 8 machine I’m sure I’ll be able to figure it out just fine. But most users aren’t me. Unlike you, I’m able to grasp that most users don’t like too much change and will be turned off by such a different look and feel. > [@](#): > > 1. if a prospective user isn’t even capable of seeing and clicking on the Desktop tile, then being confronted with OS X is likely to make said user collapse in a blubbering mess. They’ll find it because they reps are showing it to them while assuring them, “look, it’s still there.” > [@](#): > > 1. You think people would flock en masse to pay 2x as much for a Mac? They do it all the time! I have no idea why people choose to pay twice as much for the same hardware because it has a little apple on the box. I am genuinely surprised sometimes that people find Droid phones or Windows PCs so difficult to use that they pay so much more for Apple products. But do you think Microsoft would be wise to ignore the threat of Apple because they cost more? That would be foolish. By setting up their store just like the Apple store and changing their products so much they are practically encouraging people to check Apple out. I guess they figure everyone already is, but it’s risky. > [@](#): > > Windows 8 _is not the Start screen._ Yeah, Window’s 8 is a lot more than that. But the start screen is a huge part of it and was the focus of their 1.5 billion dollar marketing campaign. And people don’t like it. > [@](#): > > Bull. Shit. Do you seriously think that being critical of a couple of components of a new version of Windows means I must be an Apple shill? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/104 "2013-05-28T20:23:03Z")
> [@Kimballkid](#): > > When is 8.1 supposed to be released? Will it be a free thing like the service packs or do you have to pay extra for it? Yes, it’s going to be free - they’re calling it a service and feature pack. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/105 "2013-05-28T20:30:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I work in software, I work with UX designers and front end developers all day. I have no trouble using something new and when I buy a Win 8 machine I’m sure I’ll be able to figure it out just fine. But most users aren’t me. Unlike you, I’m able to grasp that most users don’t like too much change and will be turned off by such a different look and feel. yet you suggest that people who don’t like too much change will change to an entirely different OS, with an entirely different look and feel, and pay quite a bit more for the privilege. It’s only slightly less ludicrous than claiming it’ll lead to 2013 being the Year of Linux on the Desktop (TM.) ---
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/106 "2013-05-28T20:30:41Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > You want people to pay money for a start button? > > The point is people liked it and Microsoft is already adding it back. Removing it was a mistake. I know this. Microsoft knows this. I agree that removing it was a mistake…and I love how you conveniently ignored the second part of my statement, that “many start menu replacements are free.” I like the look and customization options on Start 8, but if you want, you can download ClassicShell and many others for free. Is it ideal? No, it was dumb of MS to remove the start menu (or at least not have it be an option), but acting like its removal cripples the entire OS doesn’t help things either. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/107 "2013-05-28T20:36:42Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I find it surprising people are defending Windows 8. I’m defending it _because I like it_. > [@](#): > > There is no doubt that this is a mis-step by MS and they are already backpeddling to fix it, as others have pointed out. IMO, the mistake they made was not really so much about the OS design - most of what they did wrong was to misjudge their customers’ perceptions. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/108 "2013-05-28T20:42:24Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I’m defending it _because I like it_. > > IMO, the mistake they made was not really so much about the OS design - most of what they did wrong was to misjudge their customers’ perceptions. the big problem (IMO) is if you have it on a touch device; it’s simply _not finished._ The real issue is if you have to change control panel settings; many of them can only be found in the classic control panel and good luck navigating that by finger. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/109 "2013-05-28T21:03:01Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > the big problem (IMO) is if you have it on a touch device; it’s simply _not finished._ The real issue is if you have to change control panel settings; many of them can only be found in the classic control panel and good luck navigating that by finger. I don’t disagree with any of that. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/110 "2013-05-28T21:18:12Z")
> [@tonyfop](#): > > Start button. Type calc in little window. hit enter. voila. > > Older versions: Start–\> Run–\> calc This is exactly how I’ve been openning windows calculator for years and it still works in 8. It takes less than a second to open it. Even before it was, it was Start \> R \> calc \> Enter, which was just one more key. Sure, GUIs are great, but at a desktop, generally keyboard shortcuts are faster. I’ll use shortcuts or pin things for stuff like a game or other programs that I use often enough and getting to that way wouldn’t be more efficient for. I also hate cluttering with icons or pins for stuff I don’t use fairly often. And still, if you use it enough or really like clicking on stuff, is it that hard to find it once and make a shortcut or pin it? Really, of all the things that you could complain about with Windows 8, this seems just seems incredibly minor and, ultimately, not even really a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/111 "2013-05-29T01:41:00Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > yet you suggest that people who don’t like too much change will change to an entirely different OS, with an entirely different look and feel, and pay quite a bit more for the privilege. It’s only slightly less ludicrous than claiming it’ll lead to 2013 being the Year of Linux on the Desktop (TM.) Yes. You are correct. It’s simply **crazy** to think that people would switch to a different OS with a different look and feel and pay more for it simply because they prefer it more. You should tell Apple, Google and Facebook about this so they can all shut down and we can go back to using Sony Walkmans, Altavista and Myspace. People do switch when they don’t like a new user experience. Not all of them, but certainly some of them. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/112 "2013-05-29T01:50:00Z")
> [@Jman](#): > > I agree that removing it was a mistake…and I love how you conveniently ignored the second part of my statement, that “many start menu replacements are free.” Sure. It’s not the money, it’s the fact that you need to download something to fix it. Think of the Grandmother user. Can she go find a replacement Start Menu, when she can’t even figure out where the start menu went? > [@](#): > > I like the look and customization options on Start 8, but if you want, you can download ClassicShell and many others for free. Is it ideal? No, it was dumb of MS to remove the start menu (or at least not have it be an option), but acting like its removal cripples the entire OS doesn’t help things either. Agreed. My point exactly. It was dumb. It doesn’t cripple the entire OS, and I’m sure the new OS is great once you get used to it. But if you piss off all your existing users, you’ve got a problem. Katie Couric was on Howard Stern the other day and was admitting what a mistake it was for her to sit in front of the news desk (because the producers wanted her to be able to show some leg). This works for Fox News and MSNBC, but Couric said they messed up because the average viewer of network news is 65+ and is used to the format. They mis-judged their audience and switched back once they realized their mistake. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/113 "2013-05-29T02:02:44Z")
> [@tonyfop](#): > > Start button. Type calc in little window. hit enter. voila. > > Older versions: Start–\> Run–\> calc So I’m supposed to take my hand off my mouse so I can TYPE?!?!? Fuck that! The old way was three lousy mouse clicks. The way you describe requires me to click, release the mouse, type four characters and a carriage return, pick up the mouse, and locate the cursor. Messy and lost productivity, especially if you use a heavily-customized CAD system you have set up to minimize keyboard input. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/114 "2013-05-29T02:23:19Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I disagree that Win8 is primarily designed for touch. It’s got touch-friendly features, and they’ve aimed for a look and feel that’s consistent with their other platforms (RT and WP8), but there’s nothing that demands or requires a touchscreen. The difference between “it’s got touch-friendly features” and “primarily designed for touch” lies in whether or not the keyboard-and-mouse-based interface can be selected as a default, banishing the touch-based interface into out-of-sight and out-of-mind limbo. In the case of Win8 as it exists now, that would be “not”. Fortunately, the hints that have emerged from Redmond’s riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma suggest that the mistake has been recognized and is being rectified in as face-saving a manner as can be managed. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/115 "2013-05-29T03:10:26Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > In the case of Win8 as it exists now, that would be “not”. Fortunately, the hints that have emerged from Redmond’s riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma suggest that the mistake has been recognized and is being rectified in as face-saving a manner as can be managed. And a lot faster than usual! We had to wait three years of monthly/weekly/daily reinstalls of Win 3.0 before they brought out the more-stable 3.1. Windows 95 didn’t become stable (in its fashion) until Windows 98. I’m nearly at the point of saying that they will get my XP Pro SP3 when they pry it out of my cold, dead fingers. (I’m fat and not young. It may not be long.) And since the only “tablets” I use are Palm Pilots and a Toshiba Dynapad that runs Win 3.1 beautifully I don’t need or want touch features. (Many a salesman has heard me say, “Touch my screen and die.”) I’ll use Win 8 eventually, so I’m glad they are fixing things, but computers have been commodities for decades, and when everybody and his grandmother uses something, developers have to realize that something bedrock like an OS needs to evolve incrementally, not with great leaps forward. Most users don’t like change, feel that some is change for its own sake to pump up sales (the ribbon), can’t be bothered to learn something new unless (or even though) it affects their jobs, or just aren’t very bright and are hanging onto their computer skills by their fingernails already. We get into this same discussion every time MS comes out with a new Windows, where MS thinks everybody is into new gadgets, when most (nearly all) users, especially corporate users, just want the goddamn thing to operate the same today as it did yesterday. Ultimately, our bosses aren’t paying us to learn new software. They are paying us to get our jobs done, and the software is just a means to that end. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/116 "2013-05-29T03:36:36Z")
Added: Thinking about the dozens of operating systems and user interfaces I’ve used in the past thirty-some years I’m reminded of something (else) I’ve said before: There comes a time when learning a new OS stops being fun. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/117 "2013-05-29T04:59:46Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > the big problem (IMO) is if you have it on a touch device; it’s simply _not finished._ The real issue is if you have to change control panel settings; many of them can only be found in the classic control panel and good luck navigating that by finger. Well fuck. See, I would call that a basic design flaw, but I’ve been told that I’m not remotely capable of making that kind of assessment. Now I see that it’s simply just _not finished_. Thanks for clearing that up. ---
**Author:** ![Sealemon88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Sealemon88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sealemon88)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/118 "2013-05-29T05:15:04Z")
> [@USCDiver](#): > > I hate Windows 8 as much as any other red blooded American, but once you’ve got the calculator open, you can right click and pin to task bar. Up until now I had shortcuts to apps like calculator, write and notepad gathered in an accessory folder on the desktop. That tip is super cool. Thanks! And +1 for the opinion the Windows 8 really should have only been released with Surface. ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/119 "2013-05-29T06:17:20Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I’ve got to say that I am totally infatuated with my new Surface Pro tablet…I’m still getting used to it and I spend most of my time on the old school desktop but the more I use the other features the more I like them. > > My biggest frustration was the damn Firewall…I use lots of proprietary software that establishes bidirectional communications with wireless equipment over the Telnet and FTP ports and I couldn’t just turn off the FireWall like I did with previous versions, I had to disable it in about a dozen different ways before I could get the programs to work. But I made them work and I just have to be careful not to undo it all with one keystroke as the machine keeps nagging me to “fix” the security issues. > > But the ability to run this software was what drew me to the Surface…like Sheldon Cooper says " the stuff I want to buy hasn’t been invented yet"…and I have been jonesing for a tablet that could run these proprietary programs used for setting up building automation systems on construction sites for forever and I purchased my Surface within 10 minutes of finding out about its existence. > > It really DOES make the iPad look like a toy. I worry that the Surface Pro isn’t selling like hotcakes and this will lead some pencil-pushing territorial fief at Microsoft to cancel or backburner it. It’s a fantastic product. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269/120 "2013-05-29T07:07:09Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > The difference between “it’s got touch-friendly features” and “primarily designed for touch” lies in whether or not the keyboard-and-mouse-based interface can be selected as a default, banishing the touch-based interface into out-of-sight and out-of-mind limbo. I disagree that the Metro Start screen is exclusively a ‘touch-based interface’. It’s touch friendly, but it’s completely usable with mouse/trackpad and keyboard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-windows-8-is-a-failure/659269.md?page=7)