# Why won't Romney release his tax returns? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 1, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085 "2012-08-01T18:35:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/682 "2012-08-23T22:17:34Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > True, but he knew he was running for president. > > Such a baffling story. I really, truly believe that he thought he could just walk in and take over the place. He’s NOT USED TO BEING QUESTIONED! His entire life people have been doing what he wants because he has a lot of money and comes from a politically aristocratic family. All of this blowback from _shudder_ peasants is a shock to him. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/683 "2012-08-23T22:34:49Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I really, truly believe that he thought he could just walk in and take over the place. He’s NOT USED TO BEING QUESTIONED! His entire life people have been doing what he wants because he has a lot of money and comes from a politically aristocratic family. All of this blowback from _shudder_ peasants is a shock to him. “We’ve given all you people need to know.” That sums up the Romney’s attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/684 "2012-08-23T23:17:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Romney answers the OP](http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/54744938-90/romney-says-church-tithing.html.csp): He won’t release his returns because he doesn’t want to reveal how much he donates/tithes to the LDS Church. I had wondered about this since the first time he declined to release returns during the primary. Romney was a bishop and stake president. He has conducted a thousand interviews in which a parishoner’s “worthiness” was determined in part by swearing to Romney that they pay a full tithe. In the linked article, Ann Romney describes how she cries tears of gratitude every time she is privileged to donate a 7-digit tithing check. What if his tax returns show that his tithing is less than 10% of his gross income? This would mean that he lied to get his own temple recommend, and that he had been hypocritically denying others their recommends. The American voter may forgive him, but it would strain relationships with his church, his family, and his wife (presumably she thinks the family is paying a full tithe). I used to be a full tithe-paying Mormon. I can hardly imagine the embarassment if my wife and my bishop had learned via the national media that I was lying in my temple worthiness interviews. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/685 "2012-08-24T00:45:32Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > It’s certainly possible. The church expects 10% of your GROSS. Romeny’s finances look so complicated with Equity Swaps, AIV’s etc. that I would not be surprised if Romney is shielding a lot of his income not only from the IRS, by also from the Mormon Church as well. After years of playing eleven-dimensional chess with Monopoly money in order to reduce his reportable income, the habit is probably so ingrained that he may have sort of drifted into twentiething rather than tithing without quite making a conscious decision to cheat. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2012, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/686 "2012-08-24T08:41:41Z")
If he’s tithed 10% of his actual gross, I would vote for him. That’s like, “If he’s tithed 10% of his actual gross, I’ll eat my sombrero,” only much safer. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/687 "2012-08-25T03:16:28Z")
Early results from the Gawker document dump: > **[Romney's Tax Strategy May Have Employed Legally Dubious Maneuvers: Experts](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mitt-romney-tax-returns_n_1827632?utm_hp_ref=politics)** > > Romney's Tax Strategy May Have Employed Legally Dubious Maneuvers: Experts > [@](#): > > “This use of total return equity swaps, such as to avoid the U.S. dividend withholding tax, was very widespread for more than a decade, and may not be dead yet, although the IRS issued a shot-across-the-bow Notice concerning the practice in 2010,” writes Daniel Shaviro, the Wayne Perry Professor of Taxation at New York University School of Law. “But taxpayers who engaged in it to avoid the dividend withholding tax were coming perilously close to committing tax fraud, in cases where the economic equivalence to direct ownership was too great.” > > The second technique is “not legal,” according to Victor Fleischer, a tax expert and professor of law at the University of Colorado. A taxpayer saves substantial amounts of money by pretending that regular income received as a management fee for running a private equity firm is not income, but is instead a capital gain. That drops the tax rate on that income from 35 percent to 15 percent. Perry gives a nice explaination of foreign tax credits here: [Start Making Sense: Has Romney paid all the U.S. federal income taxes that he legally owes?](http://danshaviro.blogspot.com/2012/08/has-romney-paid-all-us-federal-income.html) > [@](#): > > Here is an example that would not actually work (or even come close) as a matter of U.S. income tax law, but that captures the economic heart of what these transactions do. Suppose that I were allowed unlimited foreign tax credits whenever I made any income tax payment to a foreign government, even if it wasn’t actually my tax liability. Now suppose that J.K. Rowling came to me and said, “I owe the U.K. government $10 million of income taxes this year. But I will pay you $5 to pay this entire liability for me.” > > End result before U.S. tax: J.K. Rowling pays me $5, and I pay the U.K. government the $10 million that she would otherwise have paid. But if I can claim foreign tax credits for this full amount, the U.S. government gives me back the $10 million, and I end up ahead by $5 (minus the U.S. tax on that amount). So U.S individuals as a whole, via the effect on federal income tax receipts, lose $9,999,995. Fleischer explains and defends his assertions about Fees Conversion here: [http://victorfleischer.com/archives/306](http://victorfleischer.com/archives/306) > [@](#): > > Management Fee Conversion. Current law on carried interest is already a sweetheart tax deal for private equity, but why not make it better? Private equity folks are not the type to walk past a twenty-dollar bill lying on the sidewalk. In the 2000s it became common for private equity fund managers to “convert” their management fees into carried interest. There are many variations on the theme, but here’s how many deals worked: each year, before the annual management fee comes due, the fund manager waives the management fee in exchange for a priority allocation of future profits. There is minimal economic risk involved; as long as the fund, at some point, has a profitable quarter, the managers get paid. (If the managers don’t foresee any future profits, they won’t waive the fees, and they will take cash instead.) In exchange for a minimal amount of economic risk, the tax benefit is enormous: the compensation is transformed from ordinary income (taxed at 35%) into capital gain (taxed at 15%). Because the management fees for a large private equity fund can be ten or twenty million per year, the tax dodge can literally save millions in taxes every year. > > **The problem is that it is not legal.** Because the deals vary in their aggressiveness, there is some disagreement among practitioners about when it works and when it doesn’t. But in my opinion, and the opinion of many tax practitioners, the practices that were common in the private equity industry in the 2000s became very, very questionable, and it’s unlikely that they would have stood up in court. (bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/688 "2012-08-25T04:56:39Z")
If he doesn’t want the American public to know that he tithes then why does he keep bringing it up? In his “13%” speech he actually talked about how if he included charitable giving he was donating more than 20%. I have often speculated that the issue is that he doesn’t tithe the full 10%, and if he releases the returns now, the public will know that he lied about how much he gave to his Church. Then again, I could be wrong and he has just suddenly decided that he doesn’t want to talk about how much he tithes. In fact, he consideres it so private that he makes a point of mentioning it in the article discussing why he wants to keep it so private. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/689 "2012-08-25T05:22:33Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > I used to be a full tithe-paying Mormon. I can hardly imagine the embarassment if my wife and my bishop had learned via the national media that I was lying in my temple worthiness interviews. Is it 10% of your (as in LDS member’s) gross (global) income or just 10% of what is reported on the US tax return? His numbers as released on the 2010 return seem to squeak by the 10% when you count the LDS related charities under his personal 501c3, but they don’t seem to be near 10% of what could be his global income if you consider some of the stuff that Gawker released. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/690 "2012-08-25T05:51:28Z")
Ten percent of gross. Imagine Romney talking to his Bishop saying “Well, I made a billion dollars this year but I was able to run loops around the tax code so to the government it appears I only made $1.50! Here’s your fifteen cents, church!” ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/691 "2012-08-25T06:21:54Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > Ten percent of gross. Imagine Romney talking to his Bishop saying “Well, I made a billion dollars this year but I was able to run loops around the tax code so to the government it appears I only made $1.50! Here’s your fifteen cents, church!” It’s not fair, really. The church should give them a break on income earned from capital gains. That would encourage them to invest in companies that would grow the economy and hire more mormons. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/692 "2012-08-25T06:55:27Z")
Hell, Sermon on the Mount is just all about entrepreneurship and capital gains, read it the right way. And that whole fishes and loaves thing, nothing more than demonstrating the miracle of compounded interest. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/694 "2012-08-25T17:09:17Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > I used to be a full tithe-paying Mormon. I can hardly imagine the embarassment if my wife and my bishop had learned via the national media that I was lying in my temple worthiness interviews. That also strikes me as a possible motive for Reid’s source and/or the Gawker leaker. If I were honestly upholding a fairly heavy burden imposed by my religion, and a professed co-religionist who used his “man of faith” credentials for public credibility were cheating and shirking, I’d be **pissed**. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/695 "2012-08-25T20:20:26Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > That also strikes me as a possible motive for Reid’s source and/or the Gawker leaker. If I were honestly upholding a fairly heavy burden imposed by my religion, and a professed co-religionist who used his “man of faith” credentials for public credibility were cheating and shirking, I’d be **pissed**. I know it’s been said a million times before, but I don’t understand why people don’t laugh themselves silly at the thought that somebody who believes in golden tablets and personal planets, enough to donate millions to the grifters who push such nonsense, is actually running for President. And that the Republican base is going to vote for him. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/696 "2012-08-25T20:21:53Z")
Is that weirder than believing in the ritual cannibalism of a Jewish zombie? ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/697 "2012-08-25T20:34:16Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Is that weirder than believing in the ritual cannibalism of a Jewish zombie? Since Mormonism includes that, yes it is. I’d say it’s worse than Dianetics, since Mormonism’s unique beliefs are just as crazy, but Dianetics doesn’t include the other crazy stuff you mentioned. But I agree that it’s bizarre that many Christians will happily vote for Jews, and now evidently Mormons, but they don’t consider atheists or Muslims to even be citizens, let alone serious candidates for office. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/698 "2012-08-25T21:52:11Z")
I don’t know of \*any \*religion’s tenets that don’t include things that seem pretty crazy to nonadherents; do you? ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/699 "2012-08-25T22:26:03Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > I know it’s been said a million times before, but I don’t understand why people don’t laugh themselves silly at the thought that somebody who believes in golden tablets and personal planets, enough to donate millions to the grifters who push such nonsense, is actually running for President. And that the Republican base is going to vote for him. But… but… he has magic under-panties! ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/700 "2012-08-26T00:09:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I don’t know of \*any \*religion’s tenets that don’t include things that seem pretty crazy to nonadherents; do you? I’m no scholar, but a lot of religions seem less goofy to me than the Abrahamic ones. Some forms of Buddhism seem harmless enough, and even the Greek myths make a lot more sense than the Bible. The world is much more easily explained by positing capricious, competing gods who play favorites, than an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent Jehovah who not only has his great plan for his Creation derailed in about five minutes by a talking serpent, but takes 4000 years to come up with a solution for it, namely allowing himself to be tortured and killed. In fact, the older parts of the Bible seem henotheistic, so it got even stupider as it went along. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/701 "2012-08-26T16:50:27Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > But I agree that it’s bizarre that many Christians will happily vote for Jews, and now evidently Mormons, but they don’t consider atheists or Muslims to even be citizens, let alone serious candidates for office. Do you know the only Protestant in a significant elected position of power in the US govt is Obama? VP, Supreme Court justices, Minority Leader, Majority Leader, and Speaker of the House are all Catholic, Mormon, or Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085/702 "2012-08-26T16:57:34Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > Do you know the only Protestant in a significant elected position of power in the US govt is Obama? VP, Supreme Court justices, Minority Leader, Majority Leader, and Speaker of the House are all Catholic, Mormon, or Jewish. Nitpick. SC Justices are not elected officials - although the point about the first ever entirely non-Protestant Court is valid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-romney-release-his-tax-returns/630085.md?page=36)