# Why wont the US resolve issues? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267 "2012-08-12T14:06:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/61 "2012-08-12T20:39:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Exactly. The OP seems to be saying “We’re doing things the right way. Why do you guys keep doing things the wrong way?” > > An American conservative would deny that we’ve fallen behind other countries. He’d say we’re leading the way away from the wrong positions other countries have on issues like abortion, socialized medicine, gay rights, gun control, drug prohibition, and the death penalty. He’d say Sweden needs to catch up with the United States. > > The OP (and myself) might disagree with this view. But it’s wrong to assume there’s a consensus on where society should be and we can measure how close every country is to this ideal. Just to clarify, I don’t think there’s a universal consensus on where society should be, that would be an absurd position to hold in the face of all evidence to the contrary. I do however believe that there are things that are resolved today that weren’t always resolved. Cigarettes cause cancer, resolved. Democracy is less bad than the alternatives, resolved. The earth is not flat, resolved. Racism is bad. Etc etc. The list of things that are resolved can be made as long as you like, depending on where you start of course. I also think there’s a huge benefit when we arrive at these conclusions, since it allows us to focus on the next problem. To me, this is progress. And to me, progress is the ultimate goal. It also seems to me that we are sometimes held hostage by groups of people who simply refuse to accept that some issues are resolved. The jury is not out on evolution. It just isn’t. And the fact that some people so feverishly wants it to be is detrimental to a societys development. I also think that looking at trends will make some things blatantly obvious. Just as a bronze age physical tool isn’t going to be more effective than a modern tool when it comes to engineering, a bronze age belief isn’t going to be as effective as a modern one. Except for some local dips, progress is continuing. We’re getting smarter and smarter. Thousands of years ago I’d guess that almost everyone was a creationist, nowadays only ignorant people hold that belief. Of course some people will argue that their pet belief (be it creationism or racism) will somehow make a comeback, but it’s just not very likely unless there is some breakdown in society which happens, but usually only locally due to wars or other disasters. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/62 "2012-08-12T20:43:36Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I had asked which of the two choices you objected to. > > I see several possibilities for your use of the term “resolved” in the OP. The issues could be considered “resolved” when the subject matter is no longer discussed and there for considered null and void as a topic of disagreement. It could mean that no one continues to object to the issues as they now stand. One side could simply give up. It could also mean that everyone is converted to one way of thinking. One side wins. > > Asking that a issue be “resolved” is one thing, asking that an issue be “resolved” in your favor is another. If you believe that “U.S. citizens have the right to democratically decide how they want to organize and run their society”, then why do you object to how they have “resolved” the issue? I do not object. I want to understand why. I don’t live in the US so the effect of US abortion laws, the death penalty, gay rights or healthcare don’t apply to me. I think you would be better off doing some things another way, but it’s up to you to decide how you want to run your piece of the planet. I want you to do well though. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/63 "2012-08-12T20:54:02Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Just to clarify, I don’t think there’s a universal consensus on where society should be, that would be an absurd position to hold in the face of all evidence to the contrary. I do however believe that there are things that are resolved today that weren’t always resolved. > > Cigarettes cause cancer, resolved. Democracy is less bad than the alternatives, resolved. The earth is not flat, resolved. Racism is bad. Etc etc. > > The list of things that are resolved can be made as long as you like, depending on where you start of course. I also think there’s a huge benefit when we arrive at these conclusions, since it allows us to focus on the next problem. To me, this is progress. And to me, progress is the ultimate goal. > > It also seems to me that we are sometimes held hostage by groups of people who simply refuse to accept that some issues are resolved. The jury is not out on evolution. It just isn’t. And the fact that some people so feverishly wants it to be is detrimental to a societys development. > > I also think that looking at trends will make some things blatantly obvious. Just as a bronze age physical tool isn’t going to be more effective than a modern tool when it comes to engineering, a bronze age belief isn’t going to be as effective as a modern one. Except for some local dips, progress is continuing. We’re getting smarter and smarter. Thousands of years ago I’d guess that almost everyone was a creationist, nowadays only ignorant people hold that belief. > > Of course some people will argue that their pet belief (be it creationism or racism) will somehow make a comeback, but it’s just not very likely unless there is some breakdown in society which happens, but usually only locally due to wars or other disasters. Are you saying that the issues you mentioned in your OP - the death penalty, abortion, healthcare, and gay rights - have the same objectively correct answers as the questions of whether cigarettes cause cancer or whether the earth is round? If so, I strongly disagree. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/64 "2012-08-12T20:57:00Z")
I think there’s some merit to the religious angle, but not necessarily in the way that everyone thinks. Rather than it being the religious loons who are out there marshaling enough support to win over legislators, I tend to think it’s more of a threat that if Legislator X gets elected and votes for [gay marriage]/[abortion rights]/[against the death penalty] that he’ll be tarred and feathered by those religious loons as being against traditional American values, families and general all around goodness. For good or ill, the religious types have taken the mantle of arbiters of “traditional” and “family” values onto themselves, and wield it like a big club against any lawmakers who dissent. What really needs to happen is that the big sane and literate denominations - Catholic, Episcopal, Presbyterian and Lutheran come out and denounce the Southern Baptists and the even more loony Evangelicals and say that they don’t speak for all of Christianity. The 4 denominations I mention are relatively progressive, but the last 2 are not. They tend to advocate a return to 1890-ish ways of thinking, and are very vocal about it. If the big and sane denominations would come out, then the legislators wouldn’t feel quite so threatened by the lunatic conservative denominations. Much the same thing needs to happen with Islam before the West will quit thinking of them as murderous loons as well. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/65 "2012-08-12T21:24:32Z")
The Catholic Church is not going to budge on abortion or SSM. They are the “lunatic fringe” on those issues. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/66 "2012-08-12T23:01:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The Catholic Church is not going to budge on abortion or SSM. They are the “lunatic fringe” on those issues. You have to remember to separate the Catholic Church into its two parts - the leadership and the membership - and remember the two parts aren’t always in agreement. Look at contraceptives, as a prime example. The Catholic leadership is adamantly opposed to contraceptives. But surveys have found that members of the Catholic Church use and want access to contraceptives at the same rate as non-Catholics (in fact some surveys have found Catholics are more likely to use contraceptives than non-Catholics). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/67 "2012-08-12T23:35:13Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > From an outside perspective it seems strange that a developed nation such as the US still hasn’t resolved some issues that pretty much the rest of the western world finished decades ago. Some examples: > > Death penalty - (We decided it wasn’t a good idea) > Abortion - (We figured out it needs to be legal) > Healthcare - (Turned out it works better if socialized) > Gay rights - (The conclusion was that gays are humans and should have rights) > > The proponents of the death penalty and all other of these now obsolete ideas have since come around. Some even want to re-write history to show that though it may have seemed like they were against gay rights or whatever, they really weren’t and were deep inside really on the side of the (now considered) good guys. Yet the US seems mired in these and other really bizarrely out of date debates, which must in the end distract from issues that are still intellectually open to debate. > > So two questions: > > 1. Why is that? > 2. Do you expect the US to join the Resolved Club on these or other issues anytime soon? 1. Remember the USA is made of 50 states. About half the states do not have the DP, for all intents and purposes (in some it’s banned, others dont have a law that calls for it and other simply do have no executions). This is a State issue, not a Federal issue. Nor is there agreement that the DP is immoral or wrong. whiles it true that most of Western Europe doesnt have the DP (a few nations have statutes that call for it for certain crimes like treason, but no one has been executed in such a long time, we can concede there really is no DP there), they also have a smaller crime problem. Even in Canada, there have been calls to bring back the DP for certain heinous crimes, and nearly half the voters are in favour of doing so. 2. We have legalized abortion in the USA. 3. The voters dont want to pay EU style high tax rates to pay for it. Isnt that freedom? We have passed Obamacare which will bring in a certain type of socialized healthcare. If you’re talking Sweden, they have a overall tax rate about double what we have in the USA. You still pay for your healthcare. A LOT. 4. Still, quite a bit of the EU does not allow Gay marriage at this time. But again, several US states do. In fact I am not sure who your “we” is but "we’ must include a very small section of the world as only (wiki) _Since 2001, eleven countries (Argentina, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Iceland, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, South Africa, Sweden) and some sub-national jurisdictions (parts of Mexico and the United States) have begun to allow same-sex couples to marry._ And again, if youre talking Sweden, they have had gay marriage for all of three years. So, shit, you were not part of the “Resolved Club” for about 237 years of the last 240. Big fucking deal. Who the fuck is the Resolved Club anyway? ---
**Author:** ![TurboNuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f19dbf/32.png) [@TurboNuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TurboNuke)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/68 "2012-08-12T23:43:22Z")
So Sweden has 9.5 million people, over 85% live in urban areas and over 85% are ethnic Swedes. Wow I’m quite impressed that you were able to get this large and diverse group to reach consensus. Did you have a similar consensus when you cooperated with the Nazis? Was that the right answer? ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/69 "2012-08-12T23:53:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Can we just agree that Canada is the most evolved nation? Thanks. ahem, I think you spelled Australia wrong mate! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/70 "2012-08-12T23:58:47Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Why is it that the views that you present are statistically much more prevalent in groups with low educations? > > By any definition, the death penalty is mainly prevalent in the less developed countries (the US and Japan(?) being the exceptions). You’re in the same group as Afghanistan, China, Congo, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Nigeria, North Korea, Pakistan, Somalia and Zimbabwe. Other than Japan and the US, I can’t think of a single democratic country with access to higher education that hasn’t abolished the death penalty. Why do you think that is? Singapore. (More than half the pop of Sweden) Taiwan. (2.5 x pop of Sweden) South Korea. (6X the pop of Sweden) Three major democratic nations who you somehow forgot to put on your list. Russia (altho “democratic” can be argued) Israel (but not since 1961, but if they ever find Bormann…) But how about New York, Michigan, Illinois, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Washington? All US states bigger than or just a little smaller than Sweden, all of whom banned capital punishment. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/71 "2012-08-13T00:00:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Exactly. The OP seems to be saying “We’re doing things the right way. Why do you guys keep doing things the wrong way?” > > An American conservative would deny that we’ve fallen behind other countries. He’d say we’re leading the way away from the wrong positions other countries have on issues like abortion, socialized medicine, gay rights, gun control, drug prohibition, and the death penalty. He’d say Sweden needs to catch up with the United States. > > The OP (and myself) might disagree with this view. But it’s wrong to assume there’s a consensus on where society should be and we can measure how close every country is to this ideal. Well, yes. But how about "_You guys (Sweden) have a confiscatory tax rate- The USA does not. We’re doing things the right way. Why do you guys keep doing things the wrong way?"_ ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/72 "2012-08-13T01:05:07Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > . . . Abortion - Abortion is legal in the U.S. and has been for forty years. . . . And, this very year, several states have imposed restrictive regulations which make abortion much more difficult to obtain. It isn’t resolved by any means. Blacks got the vote with the 14th amendment…but Jim Crow laws and other burdensome regulations interfered with that right, right up to and including today. I’d put race relations on the list of major issues in the U.S. which are far from resolved. I think the OP raised a fair question. My answer would follow that of others here: U.S. federalism makes resolution difficult. The way Congress is constituted makes issues tougher to resolve than under a parliamentary system. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/73 "2012-08-13T01:17:46Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I’ll happily sign a document saying that Sweden is a puny nation that sucks and that USA is number one, if that will help. If it will help, I will also define the “Western World” as whatever nations DO have a national consensus on these issues. That way nobody has to get defensive. 😉 Worst argument ever! ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/74 "2012-08-13T01:33:16Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > And, this very year, several states have imposed restrictive regulations which make abortion much more difficult to obtain. > > It isn’t resolved by any means. > > Blacks got the vote with the 14th amendment…but Jim Crow laws and other burdensome regulations interfered with that right, right up to and including today. I’d put race relations on the list of major issues in the U.S. which are far from resolved. > > I think the OP raised a fair question. Agreed, and the counterpoints are some of the issues that were once contentious but now resolved. Slavery: nobody, in or out of the South, is seriously advocating a return to slavery. Gender issues remain, but nobody is suggesting taking the vote away from women. These two issues were resolved at a federal level, which is an interesting difference. The backlash against the groups has remained (edit: though obviously lessening all the time), but the specific issue was firmly resolved. So perhaps the answer is “we need a consitutional amendment.” Which, of course, won’t happen for the same reasons the issues aren’t resolved in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/75 "2012-08-13T01:59:35Z")
In regard to the original question of “Why won’t the US resolve issues?”, I think the most obvious answers have been well addressed already: 1. The US is big and diverse, so consensus takes longer. 2. In total, the US population skews more conservative and religious than European populations. 3. American Federalism allows the social issues listed in the OP to be “resolved” in different ways in different States, so it takes longer for these issues to be “resolved” at a national level. Another difference between Europe and America may be illustrated by this quote > [@Stoneburg](#): > > …Regarding the death penalty I think it is fairly easy. Do I believe some people deserve to die? Yes, I’d even kill some of them myself. Do I think a death penalty is beneficial to society. No. The “beneficial to society” statement comes up over and over when **Stoneburg** is explaining why the progressive policies of most European nations are objectively correct (in his or her view) and are the inevitable destination toward which America must creep. I agree with the progressive policies (SSM, legal abortion, limited to no death penalty, universal health care), but I am not as concerned with the “beneficial to society” argument as I am with the extent to which the policies increase or impinge upon personal freedom and civil liberty. Is this emphasis on personal liberty more prevalent in the American psyche and government institutions than in Europe? If so, that might provide another reason why these issues have been harder to “resolve” in America. There is more reluctance and less opportunity to impose progressive resolutions on those who disagree. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/76 "2012-08-13T02:07:08Z")
The veracity of the OP’s four bullet points aside, he seems not to realize that the US, being a democracy, only codifies social legislation _after_, and _well_ after, an identifiable consensus has been reached. To “resolve” an issue is to take an irrevocable position on it, in the context of social legislation. Of course the process is slow. God forbid it should be otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/77 "2012-08-13T02:56:15Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > You probably burst someones bubble, but not mine. My claim is that these issues aren’t resolved, ie: there is no national consensus. In the US a person can hold the belief that abortion should be illegal, the death penalty is good and that gays shouldn’t have the same rights as heterosexuals, without being considered a social pariah or political nutcase. If you believe that is not the case in the rest of the Western world, you are remarkably underinformed. I live in Canada. Many Canadians, arguably a majority, support the death penalty for some crimes. Many Canadians oppose same sex marriage. Many Canadians oppose abortion rights. They aren’t afraid to say so, even if presently the federal government won’t give them what they want. I assure you it’s the same everywhere. I really have trouble believing all Swedes oppose the death penalty; according to a few easily found cites, support for its reintroduction ranges around 30-40 percent. That’s not a fringe belief. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/78 "2012-08-13T02:59:05Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Slavery: nobody, in or out of the South, is seriously advocating a return to slavery. Why bother, when corrupt law enforcement and courts can conspire with rent-a-prisoner schemes just as well? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/79 "2012-08-13T05:05:45Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Agreed, and the counterpoints are some of the issues that were once contentious but now resolved. Slavery: nobody, in or out of the South, is seriously advocating a return to slavery. . They’re bringing back Jim Crow as we speak. (Bill Maudlin’s cartoon will now have to be updated with the Eagle getting kicked back off his perch). Seperate but Equal cant be far behind, and then…??? > **[Redirect Notice](https://www.google.com/imgres?q=bill%2Bmauldin%2B%22I%27ve%2Bdecided%2BI%2Bwant%2Bmy%2Bseat%2Bback%22&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&sa=N&biw=1385&bih=851&tbm=isch&tbnid=Hwi1HLxZH2oIJM:&imgrefurl=http:%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FIve-Decided-Want-Seat-Back%2Fdp%2F0060128453&docid=akjsEUzFgutJdM&imgurl=http:%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F51rYQAPrkRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg&w=300&h=300&ei=rIooUJbeCuWciQL7hIDgCQ&zoom=1)** ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267/80 "2012-08-13T05:14:22Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > W > I’m going to guess that, say, 15% of people in Sweden support the death penalty. If they were all in two regions of Sweden, and regions in Sweden were given authority to enact their own policies on the death penalty, then you would have the same thing there. Two regions with a legal death penalty while the other regions sneered at them. They have small areas in Europe with unique identities: they are called countries. But none of them support the death penalty. It makes no sense to cite America’s Federalism to explain why we different than Europe as a whole, and that was the OP’s point. You have Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox countries speaking more than a dozen languages, extending north to the Arctic Circle and south to within 10 miles of North Africa. But none of them support the death penalty and all of them have universal healthcare. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wont-the-us-resolve-issues/631267.md?page=5)