# Why Would a Culture Abandon Metallurgy? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 6, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933 "2012-10-06T20:15:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/1 "2012-10-06T20:15:22Z")
The ancient Bolivian temple of Tiwanaku is one of the wonders of the world-it has stonework far more advanced than anything built by the Incas or Aztecs:[Tiwanaku - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiwanaku) The amazing stone cutting work had to have been done with metal (bronze) tools-stone hammers (such as used by the Incas) would never have sufficed for such fine work. The other amazing thing-the foundation stones were clamped together using arsenic bronze clamps. This was a technique used by the Greeks (except that they used iron clamps). My question: why would these people have abandoned metal tools? From the time of the Incas on (in the Americas), nobody used metals at all (except for gold ornamental work). The people who built Tiwanaku used many techniques that were far in advance of anything at that time-so why did they regress and abandon their magnificent works? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/2 "2012-10-06T21:11:58Z")
No tin? ---
**Author:** ![JohnnyMac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@JohnnyMac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnyMac)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/3 "2012-10-06T22:05:56Z")
That’s what I was going to say. Maybe they had trouble accessing the raw ingredients. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/4 "2012-10-06T22:09:05Z")
If the people with the knowledge died; through disease/plague, warfare, starvation or stupidity (leadership or arsenic poisoning), that would be the end of it. It could also be, as Bosda implies, that the easily gathered and worked available resources were used up. Loss of knowledge was fairly common in the ancient world. ---
**Author:** ![Beastly\_Rotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@Beastly\_Rotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastly_Rotter)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/5 "2012-10-06T22:09:39Z")
No decent albums after And Justice For All, probably. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/6 "2012-10-06T22:14:01Z")
In all likelihood, a civilization without metal wiped out the civilization that did, and didn’t bother to save the metallurgists. The thing about pre-literate cultures is that knowledge always dies with the people who hold it in their heads. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/7 "2012-10-06T22:29:35Z")
You need a certain ability to produce specialists to do metal-working, people who can devote time to mining, refining, and crafting rather than food production. If sufficient bad famine years hit it can wipe out such luxuries as metal working in small village based cultures. And they may have used up all the easily accessible ore. Or war - although you’d think conquerors would recognize the value of metal and keep the specialist alive, but maybe not if metal-working wasn’t well known, or if it was a village vs. village conflict rather than a conquering horde of some sort. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendajo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Arrendajo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arrendajo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/8 "2012-10-06T22:48:27Z")
Besides the little cramps they used to hold some stones together, I don’t see any reference in the wiki site that they had a true understanding and use of metalurgy. Maybe they were almost but not quite at a true metal working stage. Also, my BS detectors start pinging whenever anyone says “those people couldn’t have done what they did with the primitive technology available to them.” Because it almost always turns out that they really really did. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/9 "2012-10-06T23:12:41Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > My question: why would these people have abandoned metal tools? From the time of the Incas on (in the Americas), nobody used metals at all (except for gold ornamental work). This isn’t true, the Inca’s used copper, tin and silver and made bronze. And while most of the stuff was decorative, they made metal weapons and tools as well. From wikipedia on Incan Society > [@](#): > > Both copper and bronze would be used for basic farming tools or weapons. Some of the common bronze and copper pieces found in the Incan empire included sharp sticks for digging, club-heads, knives with curved blades, axes, chisels, needles and pins. All of these items would be forged by a metallurgist and then spread throughout the empire. > > The Incans reserved their more precious metals for ornaments and decorations. Gold and silver were common themes throughout the palaces of Incan emperors. It was said that the walls and thrones were covered with gold and that the emperor dined on gold and silver service. These golden plated services would often be inlaid with llamas, butterflies or other creatures. Even beyond the gold and decoration of the emperor’s palace were the ornaments that decorated all of the temples throughout the empire. The temples of the Incans were strewn with sacred and highly precious objects. Headdresses, crowns, ceremonial knives, cups, and a lot of ceremonial clothing were all inlaid with gold or silver. So I’d say the answer to the OP’s question is: “they didn’t”. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/10 "2012-10-06T23:23:45Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > No tin? Unlikely-Bolivia is one of the world’s largest producers of tin. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/11 "2012-10-06T23:37:39Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Unlikely-Bolivia is one of the world’s largest producers of tin. But how available was it to the people of the time with only their technology, instead of modern mining techniques? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/12 "2012-10-07T00:57:49Z")
Again, the OP is based on a false premise. The successors to the people of Tiwanaku continued to use copper, tin and bronze for tools and weapons. There is no mystery to solve. ---
**Author:** ![Dano83860](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a4c791/32.png) [@Dano83860](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dano83860)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/13 "2012-10-07T04:40:32Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > This isn’t true, the Inca’s used copper, tin and silver and made bronze. And while most of the stuff was decorative, they made metal weapons and tools as well. > > From wikipedia on Incan Society > > So I’d say the answer to the OP’s question is: “they didn’t”. Your reference lacks citations. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/14 "2012-10-07T10:41:45Z")
> [@Beastly\_Rotter](#): > > No decent albums after And Justice For All, probably. ? What does this have to do with pre-columbian metallurgy?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/15 "2012-10-07T11:50:07Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > ? What does this have to do with pre-columbian metallurgy?😕 [It’s a joke.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallica#...And_Justice_for_All_.281988.E2.80.931990.29) ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/16 "2012-10-07T13:09:28Z")
> [@Arrendajo](#): > > Besides the little cramps they used to hold some stones together, I don’t see any reference in the wiki site that they had a true understanding and use of metalurgy. Maybe they were almost but not quite at a true metal working stage. > Also, my BS detectors start pinging whenever anyone says “those people couldn’t have done what they did with the primitive technology available to them.” Because it almost always turns out that they really really did. How did they finish such large building stones with flat surfaces? If you look at Inca built wall, the blocks are very roughly finished (they fitted them by grinding them against eachother). At Tiwanaku, the blocks are perfectly squared off-they even drilled precise holes into certain blocks. This could not have been done without metal tools. It is hard to imagine people going back to stone tools, after having metal tools. As for the arsenic bronze, it is quite a bit harder than standard (copper-tin) bronze,and the hardness would have been helpful in finishing stonework. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/17 "2012-10-07T13:15:02Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > How did they finish such large building stones with flat surfaces? If you look at Inca built wall, the blocks are very roughly finished (they fitted them by grinding them against eachother). At Tiwanaku, the blocks are perfectly squared off-they even drilled precise holes into certain blocks. > This could not have been done without metal tools. Are you a stonemason? You are making an assertion without proof, and it may be based upon ignorance. You’d be amazed at what some people can do without power tools, cranes or bulldozers. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/18 "2012-10-07T13:52:26Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > How did they finish such large building stones with flat surfaces? If you look at Inca built wall, the blocks are very roughly finished (they fitted them by grinding them against eachother). At Tiwanaku, the blocks are perfectly squared off-they even drilled precise holes into certain blocks. > This could not have been done without metal tools. > It is hard to imagine people going back to stone tools, after having metal tools. > As for the arsenic bronze, it is quite a bit harder than standard (copper-tin) bronze,and the hardness would have been helpful in finishing stonework. Any softer stone can be chipped and finished by harder material. It takes a lot more time than using metal tools, but it can be done rather easily. It is a skill, like anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/19 "2012-10-07T20:04:46Z")
while I have no axe to grind in this:D; I might propose another thought. Consider that it wasn’t the lack of metal producing ores, but perhaps the lack of large amounts of fuel required to process the ore. I can see where a society finally uses up most of their wood and can no longer maintain the intense fires required to smelt large amounts of metal. Exhaustion of fuel seems a common theme in societies. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendajo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Arrendajo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arrendajo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933/20 "2012-10-07T20:41:28Z")
The OP is amazed by their stone work, but what really struck me in the wiki article was their agricultural production. They produced more potatoes per acre than modern farms. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-a-culture-abandon-metallurgy/636933.md?page=2)