# Why would gays choose to be Catholic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2023, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826 "2023-12-19T14:20:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/21 "2023-12-19T17:11:30Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > It’s not like religion was the ONLY place were being gay was considered deviant and problematic. Right. But it is a tad easier to - say - stop going to a particular church, than to renounce your citizenship and move to a different country. I remember when our church - UU - was making a big deal out of being designated a “Welcoming Congregation” back in the 90s. My wife and I were excoriated for saying that we weren’t particularly interested in attracting gays, as much as we were in attracting UUs - preferably Humanists. If any LGBTQ person were looking for a accepting religious community, UU would certainly show up on any cursory search. At the time 2 guys lived next door to us. They had mentioned some of the BS they got. We mentioned UU as a possible religion, and they responded that they were not interested, b/c they were Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/22 "2023-12-19T17:15:45Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > But when it comes down to choosing among the many sects that offer that, why choose the one that says I’m a sinner damned to hell? IANAC, but it’s my understanding that the Catholic Church teaches that _everyone_ is a sinner (that’s why they’re required to go to Confession). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/23 "2023-12-19T17:30:50Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Right. But it is a tad easier to - say - stop going to a particular church, than to renounce your citizenship and move to a different country. My point was, we were trained and socialized just to put up with being in a group that didn’t want us. There WAS no country where it was just okay to be gay. There WAS no church where it was okay to be gay (at least, not that I knew of at the time). I became a neopagan, though quite an agnostic one, working on a spirituality that works for me, but incorporating some Catholic saints. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/24 "2023-12-19T17:32:13Z")
Many denominations have been slowly accepting homosexuality for the past few decades (since, say, 1969, since the Stonewall riots are often consider an important turning point). Many organizations have been slowly accepting homosexuality over that time. Many countries have been slowly accepting homosexuality over that time. It’s quite possible that the Catholic church will slowly become more accepting of it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/25 "2023-12-19T17:33:10Z")
There’s also room within less orthodox Catholicism for queerness, e.g. Saint Sebastian. > **[How Saint Sebastian became an LGBTQ icon](https://outreach.faith/2023/01/how-saint-sebastian-became-a-queer-icon/)** > > Sebastian can be interpreted as a bound Eros. Pointing at him represents a kind of protest. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/26 "2023-12-19T17:33:11Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > IANAC, but it’s my understanding that the Catholic Church teaches that _everyone_ is a sinner (that’s why they’re required to go to Confession). Yeah - I guess that’s another thing I had difficulty with. I can do whatever I want, but so long as I say, “Oops - my bad!” a second before I die, I’m given the halo and wings. Especially if it is something you don’t think is wrong, and that you intend to continue to keep doing. And the idea (back then) that newborn babies were somehow deficient and would not get into heaven. (Pretty sure they edited out Limbo.) I wonder if my mom ever confessed her “sin” of using birth control before she died… I know religion is weird, to the extent otherwise ostensibly rational people believe in irrational shit. And folk who otherwise claim to have control over their thoughts, expressions, and actions profess that this particular belief is NOT volitional. But when it comes down to a belief situation that proclaims that I am lesser, and when there are readily available alternatives. Just a weird way that some people act. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/27 "2023-12-19T17:37:29Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > IANAC, but it’s my understanding that the Catholic Church teaches that _everyone_ is a sinner “except for this guy.” ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/28 "2023-12-19T18:07:16Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Yeah - I guess that’s another thing I had difficulty with. I can do whatever I want, but so long as I say, “Oops - my bad!” a second before I die, I’m given the halo and wings. Especially if it is something you don’t think is wrong, and that you intend to continue to keep doing. It’s not quite that easy under Catholic doctrine. For absolution and salvation, it’s not the formal act of the confession that matters most; it’s the honest repentance. The Church accepts sinners,but for forgiveness of the sin it’s necessary to repent it. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/29 "2023-12-19T18:29:33Z")
Another thing to keep in mind is that people often don’t think of Rome as “The Church” so much as they think of the priests in their parish. I’ve known some extremely loving, kind, tolerant priests. Hell, I’m not sure they believed all the bullshit stuff. They’re the type who (back in the limbo days) would have assured a grief-stricken mother whose baby died before baptism that of course her child was in heaven. “Our Lord loves us as his own children. There’s no doubt your baby is with Him right now, and we’ll all be together again someday.” I’ve witnessed such a heartbreaking exchange (the mother of a suicide). That priest was awesome, someone whose first concern was the spiritual health and comfort of his fellow humans, and not who did or didn’t get punished for their sins. Anyway, for a lot of people one kind, loving priest can be enough to more than offset all that “stuff from Rome.” Those stuffy cardinals don’t impact their lives in any way. Father Bill who stops by to see if your sick mom is okay does. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/30 "2023-12-19T18:39:27Z")
Or the other parishioners, for that matter. We’re all of us “the Church”. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/31 "2023-12-19T18:44:22Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > It’s not quite that easy under Catholic doctrine. Of course it is not quite that easy. You have to MEAN it. But if the nicest damned gay person dies without repenting the sin of who they fucking are - through no fault or intention of their own, it’s fiery eternity for that poor bastard. So do gay Catholics think they will have to repent on their deathbeds? Or do they regularly confess their sin, only to have to do it again and again - and hope they don’t die in-between “gayness”. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/32 "2023-12-19T18:52:42Z")
It’s also entirely possible to identify with a religion while disagreeing with that religion on some of its doctrine. People do it all the time. My grandfather married a second wife _while his first wife was still alive._ Although this is not doctrinally acceptable, he (and his donations) meant that he was able to compromise and receive confession and everything. He was certainly a believing, practicing Catholic, but also ignored the bits that he disagreed with. I don’t see why a gay person couldn’t do exactly the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/33 "2023-12-19T18:56:07Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > So do gay Catholics think they will have to repent on their deathbeds? Or do they regularly confess their sin, only to have to do it again and again - and hope they don’t die in-between “gayness”. I can’t be certain, not being gay - but I suspect they don’t think either of those things. They most likely believe the Church teaching is wrong on some level - either that it’s not a sin at all or that God wouldn’t make someone gay and then punish them for acting on it. Lots of Catholics go to church every Sunday even while using contraception, without having confessed any of the sex they had before they were married or the sex they are having with their second spouse while the first is still living. There isn’t any reason to believe that gay people are any different than straight people who unrepentantly do things against Catholic teaching and still consider themselves Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/34 "2023-12-19T19:01:56Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > So do gay Catholics think they will have to repent on their deathbeds? Or do they regularly confess their sin, only to have to do it again and again - and hope they don’t die in-between “gayness”. I’m speculating since I’m not gay, but I suspect they don’t consider it a sin at all, regardless of what the Church says. It’s similar to contraception, or premarital sex, or a host of other things. Hell, the Church teaches that masturbation is a mortal sin, one that damns you to hell if you don’t repent and confess. Talk about a harmless hobby that most Catholics ain’t confessing, and neither are they giving it up. In my experience, FWIW, it’s the very rare Catholic who sweats all the “sins,” even the ones they perceive as harmless. I’d guess that something north of 95% of Catholics (based on zero research on my part) are cafeteria Catholics to some extent, great or small. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/35 "2023-12-19T19:13:41Z")
Religion I get, reason was never meant to apply. But I have met gay Republicans occasionally over the course of my life and I am at a complete loss there. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/36 "2023-12-19T19:23:24Z")
Neither gay nor religious but I would note that just because someone says that you shouldn’t do a thing doesn’t mean that you can’t associate with them. Your doctor tells you to eat less and get more exercise - neither of which you might have any intention of doing - that doesn’t necessarily mean that you stop going to the doctor. Whether the doctor or priest’s list of things is accurate and fair, be as it may, lots of people keep doing what they’re doing, regardless of what they’re being told. ---
**Author:** ![sb1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@sb1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sb1953)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/37 "2023-12-19T19:28:37Z")
Two things are at work here. Probably the first one is the fear injected into catholic kids of going to “hell” if they are not catholic, and I assume this is still taught today. The second thing is what my best man said when i asked him why he still stayed catholic and he answered :…“Well I don’t think there is a heaven but I figure it is like “insurance” since it cannot be proved nor disproved” ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/38 "2023-12-19T19:32:41Z")
> [@sb1953](#): > > The second thing is what my best man said when i asked him why he still stayed catholic and he answered :…“Well I don’t think there is a heaven but I figure it is like “insurance” since it cannot be proved nor disproved” An idea which, in more elaborate form, is called Pascal’s Wager. Of all the contributions to the debate about the existence or non-existence of God, I think that’s the lamest. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/39 "2023-12-19T20:11:25Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Hell I don’t understand how people can remain Catholic after the child sex abuse scandals. But people still enter their children into Boy Scouts, so what do I know. Well, one of my son’s teachers was arrested for having sex with his children. I don’t understand how people still send their kids to school! [/sarcasm] Pedophiles are going to insert themselves into situations where they have access to children. The rate of pedophelia in the Catholic church is no higher than the rate in any protestant sect nor many other religions. The true scandal with the Catholic church was how they shuffled and hid the abusers rather than allow them to be prosecuted. You need a vast hierarchy to do that, along with many many mistakes by people. The scandal with the Boy Scouts was kinda the opposite - you got caught (or at least suspected), you got kicked out of the INDIVIDUAL troop; the people in your council may know and not let you get involved in another troop in your council, but the next council over doesn’t know, and there was no mandated reporting and no national list. Reporting was poor in scouting because of embarrassment. In scouting, it was an intentional blind eye; in the Catholic Church, it was intentionally hiding them. In both organizations, there have been major upgrades in how they deal with pedophelia. Why do parents still sign their kids up for Scouting? Because the kids can learn useful skills (thank God my son knew first aid when I fell out of a tree!) and the kids get a chance to experience things they wouldn’t otherwise. Why am I still Catholic? Because the sex abuse scandal was the fault of individual people, not the teaching of the church, and I believe that their teachings, for the most part, are correct. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > And the “cafeteria Catholicism” is something I have a hard time getting my mind around. When I was a kid back in the 60s, tat was a significant insult. Now, it almost seems to describe acceptable behavior. > > Full disclosure - I was born/raised on the NW side of Chicago. EVERYONE was Catholic. There were a couple of Lutheran churches, and I knew 1 Jew in grade school. My mom dragged us to church every Sunday, and while she required that we confess and take communion, she never did. After I was born as a rhythm baby, she used contraception, and refused to “confess” that as a sin. RC is such a weird religion. My wife and I were married in 1990. Mandatory pre-cana classes before being married in the Catholic church. AT THE CLASS, the priest said something like “I’m not married, never been married, so I’m going to turn this over to this couple to discuss contraception.” Our bit on contraception quoted one papal encyclical that implied contraception was bad; another that implied contraception was good. They ended with “it’s between you and your God.” And, yes, the priest was still there in the room. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826/40 "2023-12-19T21:26:18Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I was raised Roman Catholic, but have been Atheist since grade school. I do not understand why someone who believes in Christ would follow a faith that disparages them. Well, the RC is far more liberal on this issue than the evangelical protestant churches. I mean, why pick on the RC church on this issue? The Pope has been pretty damn liberal on this issue- and others. > [@Chronos](#): > > 1: They were raised Catholic, and consider it part of their identity. Good point. > [@Anaamika](#): > > Hell I don’t understand how people can remain Catholic after the child sex abuse scandals. But people still enter their children into Boy Scouts, so what do I know. Right, and swim coaches, and the weird uncle, and protestant ministers, etc. The RC church has no monopoly on child abuse. > [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > Pedophiles are going to insert themselves into situations where they have access to children. The rate of pedophelia in the Catholic church is no higher than the rate in any protestant sect nor many other religions. Right. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I know a lot of other versions of Christianity are more welcoming to gays, but when you come right down to it, you’re stuck with Paul in the Bible. There’s no version of Christianity that’s truly theologically pro-gay, though certainly some congregations are. Sure, but apparently Paul was actually talking about gay prostitutes, as some have claimed. But Paul also railed against drunkards, thieves, 'revilers", and fornicators. So, listen to Jesus himself- “let those without sin cast the first stone” since I bet finding a Right wing evangelical preacher who _isn’t_ a drunkard, reviler, thief, or fornicator is gonna be DAMN hard. > **[1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy on Homosexuality- The Reformation Project](https://reformationproject.org/case/1-corinthians-and-1-timothy/)** > > 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy, often cited against same-sex relationships, focus not on homosexuality but on exploitation and abuse. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > But when it comes down to choosing among the many sects that offer that, why choose the one that says I’m a sinner damned to hell? Pretty much we all are. And we all can be forgiven. **"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate (_malakoi_), nor abusers of themselves with mankind (_arsenokoitai_), nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-gays-choose-to-be-catholic/994826.md?page=3)