# Why would Republicans object to the $20 billion BP clean-up fund? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634 "2010-06-18T01:49:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/61 "2010-06-18T20:41:38Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > **ElvisL1ves** - If I threaten you with financial ruin if you don’t pay me a lot of money, is that really “voluntary”? I not he, but yea. The teeth in the threat comes from liability generated by the results of BP’s voluntary activities. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/62 "2010-06-18T22:22:08Z")
I just don’t really see where this is anything unique with the exception of the size. It is incredibly common for Oil & Gas companies to have to put up some financial assurance that they will properly be able to financially handle the environmental impacts of their operations. This may come in the form of an escrow account, a bond, a letter of credit or other types of financial surety. It is typical to need to put up something like this when a field is nearing its later stages of life and someone (state, Bureau of Land Management, or MMS) wants assurances that the company will be able to handle the restoration costs. I deal with it all the time with the Railroad Commission of Texas, the Louisiana Office of Conservation, the Mississippi State Oil and Gas Board, the State Oil and Gas Board of Alabama, and the Bureau of Land Management. It’s a part of doing business in the Oil and Gas industry. Unfortunately for BP, they’re dealing with a very high number. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/63 "2010-06-18T22:58:05Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > I’ll ask this again: why is it that almost everyone (and especially the Righties - see Rand Rover’s first post) is ignoring the word “escrow” in this deal? Pick. Either it’s because it doesn’t fit the narrative they’ve decided on, or it’s because those sweet, sweet billions can’t be used for junkets. Everyone knows that money spent by a company is the best use for that company. Any money directed by the government is essentially like tossing it on a bonfire. > [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I not he, but yea. The teeth in the threat comes from liability generated by the results of BP’s voluntary activities. By the logic in this thread, everything is extortion. “Best not drive over the speed limit, might get a ticket.” EXTORTION! Want to argue that one, folks? Fine. By the logic in this thread, every plea bargain ever struck is extortion. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/64 "2010-06-18T23:40:52Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > By the logic in this thread, everything is extortion. > > “Best not drive over the speed limit, might get a ticket.” EXTORTION! > > Want to argue that one, folks? Fine. > > By the logic in this thread, every plea bargain ever struck is extortion. > > -Joe Good, so you get why I’m saying it isn’t extortion.😉 ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/65 "2010-06-18T23:41:45Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Good, so you get why I’m saying it isn’t extortion.😉 You’re trying to extort an agreement out of him. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/66 "2010-06-18T23:47:38Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > … Unfortunately for BP, they’re dealing with a very high number. I am a connoisseur of understatement. That was tasty. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/67 "2010-06-19T00:42:33Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What threat was made? > > And, assuming you can find out what that was, how does holding them to the responsibility you already acknowledge they have constitute a “threat”? The threat is implicit. Eric Holder and Justice is looking into civil or criminal action against BP. BP volunteers $20B with no assurances that the government won’t come looking for more. BP is still liable for all claims in court. This fund does not cover the environmental damage. BP also pays $100M for jobs lost due to Obama’s offshore drilling ban. Legally BP doesn’t have to pay anything now and they don’t seem to be getting anything out of this deal. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/68 "2010-06-19T01:01:41Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Legally BP doesn’t have to pay anything now and they don’t seem to be getting anything out of this deal. Nothing, nothing at all? What of intangibles? Are they nothing? Seems to me BP took a step away from the path Toyota took with its sticky-accelerator debacle. Is that worthless in your eyes? ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/69 "2010-06-19T01:18:27Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Nothing, nothing at all? > What of intangibles? Are they nothing? > Seems to me BP took a step away from the path Toyota took with its sticky-accelerator debacle. > Is that worthless in your eyes? I don’t think BP even gets goodwill. It appears that Obama demanded the money from BP so I don’t see how they look better to the public ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/70 "2010-06-19T01:49:52Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > The threat is implicit. Eric Holder and Justice is looking into civil or criminal action against BP. BP volunteers $20B with no assurances that the government won’t come looking for more. BP is still liable for all claims in court. This fund does not cover the environmental damage. BP also pays $100M for jobs lost due to Obama’s offshore drilling ban. Legally BP doesn’t have to pay anything now and they don’t seem to be getting anything out of this deal. The 20 billion is for out of court settlements. Say Bubba Gump shrimp receives $20,000 in compensation from the fund. Well if they sue for damages later that $20,000 is $20,000 less they’ll be able to claim because they’ve already been compensated partially. Instead of haggling in court for years until Bubba Gump shrimp goes out of business, broke and destitute, the economic victims get to keep feeding their families and such. Easier on everybody, including BP stock holder’s apparently, and BP’s liability is unaffected, and they save money on court costs. Just what do you think BP should get out of this deal? ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/71 "2010-06-19T02:54:47Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > The 20 billion is for out of court settlements. Say Bubba Gump shrimp receives $20,000 in compensation from the fund. Well if they sue for damages later that $20,000 is $20,000 less they’ll be able to claim because they’ve already been compensated partially. Instead of haggling in court for years until Bubba Gump shrimp goes out of business, broke and destitute, the economic victims get to keep feeding their families and such. Easier on everybody, including BP stock holder’s apparently, and BP’s liability is unaffected, and they save money on court costs. > Just what do you think BP should get out of this deal? How exactly does that help BP? I would assume that any company that voluntarily parts with $20B would want some assurance that they could not then be sued by states or individuals. I’m assuming that the only thing the administration promised is that Justice wouldn’t prosecute…hence my posting in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/72 "2010-06-19T03:01:16Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > How exactly does that help BP? I would assume that any company that voluntarily parts with $20B would want some assurance that they could not then be sued by states or individuals. I’m assuming that the only thing the administration promised is that Justice wouldn’t prosecute…hence my posting in this thread. I don’t think there is any evidence any of that happened. If BP expected a limit to liability, they would insist on having it in the agreement. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/73 "2010-06-19T04:24:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What threat was made? > > And, assuming you can find out what that was, how does holding them to the responsibility you already acknowledge they have constitute a “threat”? > > And, for that matter, who is getting paid the “lot of money” here? > > When come back, bring argument. See, how it works here in the USA is that when we think someone is responsible for a major fuckup, we hold series of legal precedings to determine a) if they were in fact responsible and b) what the actual amount of damages are. The government usually doesn’t just point it’s finger and say “YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE!! BEGIN PAYING MONEY UNTIL WE SAY STOP!!” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/74 "2010-06-19T04:28:16Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > How exactly does that help BP? I would assume that any company that voluntarily parts with $20B would want some assurance that they could not then be sued by states or individuals. I’m assuming that the only thing the administration promised is that Justice wouldn’t prosecute…hence my posting in this thread. Are you saying you want more government protectionism in the market place?:dubious: The whole point of lawsuits is to make those wronged or injured by another party as close to whole as possible. Consider this: Let’s say you T-bone me and do severe damage to my car. We start arguing how much it’s gonna cost. I want the money up front because I need to get my car running again as quick as possible for my livelihood, but you’re worried I’m over charging you. we both know it won’t go well for you in court. Anyway Obama and **Ogre** walk up. Obama is like “you know **Ogre** here is pretty trust worthy. How about you let him as a trusted 3rd party handle the money? You can give him a fund, say $2,000 and he can see to it that’s only used to pay the repair bills and return any left over, but if it isn’t enough you pay the rest later”. Well you agree. Later the bill comes back, and it’s $2,150. **Ogre** pays $2,000 of it from the available fund you gave him. Leaving me $150 still in the hole. Being the dastardly smooth criminal I am I decide to sue you for $2,150, instead of the $150 you still owe. You get the receipts off **Ogre** showing you already paid $2,000, and show the judge. Judge orders you to pay the $150, not $2,150 because you’ve already paid $2,000. This is pretty much what’s going on with BP. They are not increasing or decreasing how much they’ll have to pay out. They’re simply paying part of it up front without tying it up in court for years while their victims become impoverished due to the losses. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/75 "2010-06-19T04:30:23Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > How exactly does that help BP? I would assume that any company that voluntarily parts with $20B would want some assurance that they could not then be sued by states or individuals. I’m assuming that the only thing the administration promised is that Justice wouldn’t prosecute…hence my posting in this thread. It neither helps or hurts BP. They have huge liabilities of which 20 bill is a small part. The 20 billion is taken from the total costs. So they are not being hosed out of money. The whole idea is to give quick aid to the people they harmed so their lives are not ruined. What the hell is wrong with that? The people of the gulf did nothing to cause the oil spill, yet it is destroying their businesses . ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/76 "2010-06-19T04:42:34Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > See, how it works here in the USA is that when we think someone is responsible for a major fuckup, we hold series of legal precedings to determine a) if they were in fact responsible and b) what the actual amount of damages are. The government usually doesn’t just point it’s finger and say “YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE!! BEGIN PAYING MONEY UNTIL WE SAY STOP!!” That isn’t what’s happening at all. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/77 "2010-06-19T04:42:44Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The government usually doesn’t just point it’s finger and say “YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE!! BEGIN PAYING MONEY UNTIL WE SAY STOP!!” That’s because the way it usually works when a big corporation fucks up is the government says, “You are responsible. Now **WE’LL** start paying \*\*YOU \*\* money until you say stop.” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/78 "2010-06-19T10:41:56Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The government usually doesn’t just point it’s finger and say “YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE!! BEGIN PAYING MONEY UNTIL WE SAY STOP!!” Corporations don’t usually endanger the lives and livelihoods of tens of millions of people. Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/79 "2010-06-19T12:07:33Z")
Rush Limbaugh intoned Obama is going to give the money to Unions and ACORN. No I can’t actually stand to watch Rush, Rachael Maddow played the clip. Apparently either he didn’t get that memo about the demise of ACORN, or knows his audience is too out of touch with reality to care. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2010, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634/80 "2010-06-19T12:47:05Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > See, how it works here in the USA is that when we think someone is responsible for a major fuckup, we hold series of legal precedings to determine a) if they were in fact responsible and b) what the actual amount of damages are. The government usually doesn’t just point it’s finger and say “YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE!! BEGIN PAYING MONEY UNTIL WE SAY STOP!!” I have sympathy for the position that the government ought not condition prosecutorial discretion on a company’s decision to comply with another government request. Even if voluntary, it is still problematic. (Though I’m certain righties wouldn’t apply the same anaylsis to people forced to choose between, say, parole and mandatory drug testing, but that’s neither here nor there.) But in this case, I’m pretty sure BP prefers this. They were gonna pay these claims anyway, and now the government takes all the blame for delay and denial of illegitimate claims. And the right-wing conspiracy theory that this was extorted by a promise not to bring a criminal action will be pretty well demolished when the inevitable criminal action is still brought. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-republicans-object-to-the-20-billion-bp-clean-up-fund/543634.md?page=5)