# Why would someone choose gun ownership over their own well-being?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 24, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199 "2018-08-24T17:19:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/41 "2018-08-24T19:51:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> We have shown here on this board that that study is totally bogus.
No, “we” have not. And “totally bogus” is a very strange way of saying that _ **one specific** _ study – the Kellerman study which has been the subject of relentless attacks from the gun lobby for twenty years – may or may not have some of the flaws they claim. However, in the spirit of fighting ignorance, there are many, many other peer-reviewed academic sources with the same conclusions. Just for a few random examples:
[ul]
[li]Garen J. Wintemute, _Guns, Fear, the Constitution, and the Public’s Health_, 358 New England J. Med. (2008)[/li][li]Douglas Wiebe, _Homicide and Suicide Risks Associated with Firearms in the Home: A National Case-control Study_, 41 Annals of Emergency Medicine 771 (June 2003)[/li][li]Douglas J. Wiebe, _Firearms in U.S. Homes as a Risk Factor for Unintentional Gunshot Fatality_, 35 Accident Analysis & Prevention 711, 713-14 (2003)[/li][li]Linda L. Dahlberg et al., _Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study_, 160 Am. J. Epidemiology 929, 929, 935 (2004)[/li][li]Matthew Miller, David Hemenway, and Deborah Azrael, _State-level Homicide Victimization Rates in the U.S. in Relation to Survey Measures of Household Firearm Ownership_, 2001 -2003, 64 Soc. Sci. & Med. 656, 660 (2007)[/li][li]Guohua Li et al., _Factors Associated with the Intent of Firearm-Related Injuries in Pediatric Trauma Patients_, 150 ARCHIVES OF PEDIATRIC & ADOLESCENT MED. 1160, 1162 (1996)[/li][/ul]
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### Author:  [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/42 "2018-08-24T19:52:36Z")
similar to a lot of people on Obamacare and like it and they vote for Trump and others who want to get rid of Obama care. Some of them had no insurance for a long time before Obamacare. People can hold 2 views that conflict.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/43 "2018-08-24T19:55:25Z")
> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> No, “we” have not. And “totally bogus” is a very strange way of saying that _ **one specific** _ study – the Kellerman study which has been the subject of relentless attacks from the gun lobby for twenty years – may or may not have some of the flaws they claim.
Let’s not hijack this with yet another gun control debate. Suffice it to say I thought our previous debate showed these studies to be bogus.
No more hijack, OK?
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### Author:  [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/44 "2018-08-24T19:59:35Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#):
>
> Well, isn’t that it in a nutshell?
>
> How we feel and how we behave are not always rational.
>
> As much as we like to think we mostly behave according to the best of our knowledge and reasoning, there is a line of thought out there that we make our decisions subconsciously and use our conscious minds to provide justifications after the fact.
>
> If so, everything we’ve experienced - thoughts, overheard comments, parental bias, education, etc - feeds into that, and we hope the collective wisdom we’ve attained lines up with the actual facts on the ground but know that’s not always the case. In many cases, we know it’s not the case at all. And trying to find a rational line of thinking is, in this case, a mug’s game.
You’re right, of course. Rationally, there’s no reason a woman living in a safe suburb who’s never been assaulted would need to carry lethal self-defense. The likelihood of her ever needing to defend herself at all, let alone with lethal force, is very small.
But if we all behaved rationally … well, life would be unrecognizable.
I still think she’s nuts. She accepts my verdict cheerfully and won’t budge an inch. Life goes on.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/45 "2018-08-24T20:03:22Z")
> [@Akaj](#):
>
> You’re right, of course. Rationally, there’s no reason a woman living in a safe suburb who’s never been assaulted would need to carry lethal self-defense. The likelihood of her ever needing to defend herself at all, let alone with lethal force, is very small.
>
> But if we all behaved rationally … well, life would be unrecognizable.
>
> I still think she’s nuts. She accepts my verdict cheerfully and won’t budge an inch. Life goes on.
She quite likely is addicted to opiods and will insist she needs them for pain,even those it is quite possible the opiods are not helping at all any longer.
So, she’s not rational about her pain.
However, marijuana is only a maybe and only mild effects for back pain, so it’s not like she is giving up a sure cure for all her back pain.
And like I said, admitting to AG Sessions that you are taking a drug he hates may have other consequences.
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### Author:  [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/46 "2018-08-24T20:03:28Z")
Just wanted to thank everyone who jumped on this thread. I definitely feel like I understand my friend’s thinking more fully.
I’ll be offline for the next day or so, so no offense if I don’t reply. Feel free to run with it!
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### Author:  [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2018, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/47 "2018-08-24T20:05:30Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#):
>
> similar to a lot of people on Obamacare and like it and they vote for Trump and others who want to get rid of Obama care. Some of them had no insurance for a long time before Obamacare. People can hold 2 views that conflict.
They can, but that kind of cognitive dissonance can’t be considered rational. It’s only rational when the apparent conflict isn’t real. A doctor may be very religious but he can put that aside and understand that his patients deserve his best professional efforts, not prayer. A cosmologist may believe in God but still explore the natural origins of the universe. But someone who rejects a potentially beneficial medication (let’s put aside the question of how well it works and assume it does) in return for the _ **illusion** _ of greater personal safety (see my earlier post) is not acting rationally. I think the answer to the OP is the obvious fact that many people make important decisions based on emotion and not fact-based and critical thinking.
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### Author:  [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/48 "2018-08-24T20:07:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> Let’s not hijack this with yet another gun control debate. Suffice it to say I thought our previous debate showed these studies to be bogus.
>
> No more hijack, OK?
For once I agree, and it wasn’t my intent to hijack, but to make one rebuttal that would, well, at least demonstrate that this was not the settled issue it was claimed to be. But further discussion belongs elsewhere.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/49 "2018-08-24T20:17:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> It’s very difficult to say. How can I judge, sitting here typing, how painful the pain is? How can I judge how effective the marijuana is at alleviating the pain?
>
> I’m strongly inclined to say that I would never use medical marijuana as an analgesic, even without the loss of gun ownership. But I also know that such firm resolutions are meaningless if not made with actual knowledge of the discomfort, so the best I can say is: I don’t think so, but can’t possibly know.
If I was that invested in gun ownership I can’t say how I would decide either…but the deciding factor in my case is that My Beloved is in pain, and I can safely say that I would give up guns to get her the pain suppressors she needs…and my right arm if it was required.
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### Author:  [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/50 "2018-08-24T20:22:00Z")
> [@Akaj](#):
>
> This strikes me as insane.
It may be, but it’s her decision to make - not yours - and you should respect that.
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### Author:  [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/51 "2018-08-24T20:25:31Z")
> [@Akaj](#):
>
> Not looking for a debate on the 2nd Amendment here, or even about gun ownership in general. I just want insight into a friend’s decision that I find utterly baffling.
>
> My friend has severe, chronic back pain from a long-ago injury. Surgery didn’t help. She takes a ton of vicodin and just barely manages the pain. We live in Illinois, so she can apply for medical marijuana, and (as a former nurse) she believes it would probably help her a lot.
>
> But she won’t apply for a medical marijuana card, because under federal law it would negate her concealed carry license.
>
> This strikes me as insane. Even if you believe it’s essential to carry a gun at all times for self-protection, what are the odds you’ll ever actually use it? One in 1000 is probably way too high, but let’s go with that. So my friend is basically choosing a 1/1000 scenario over one that will help her feel better every single day.
>
> We have gun owners and gun-rights advocates here. Explain how this mindset makes sense.
Lifelong gun owner, and I’m with you. If I had chronic pain that could be alleviated with a medication and doing so negated my right to keep and bear, my gun collection would quickly be dispersed (legally transferred) to trusted friends and relatives toot-sweet.
Having said that, each person’s life is their own; we all place value, relative value, on the things and concepts and people in our lives, and do so to varying degrees (varying, that is, from you to me, me to my neighbor Jim, Jim to his coworker Sue, etc.).
The answer you seek is not here; it’s with your friend; she can (or cannot) explain her value judgements better than I could ever guess. Talk to her, not random people on the internet.
Some mitigating factors: your “one-in-a-thousand” is probably an average, an overall National Average; it can vary considerably depending upon local circumstances. If your friend lives in a high-crime area, or works in one, her severe chronic pain may make her feel that she’s vulnerable to predatory criminals, muggers and rapists and such.
Just a WAG on my part, though.
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### Author:  [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2018, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/52 "2018-08-24T20:39:34Z")
Humans are, generally, poor at rational risk assessment, see for example hysteria about stranger danger, not being able bring pocket knives onto planes, fear of mass shootings, etc.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2018, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/53 "2018-08-24T20:44:51Z")
> [@ExTank](#):
>
> Lifelong gun owner, and I’m with you. If I had chronic pain that could be alleviated with a medication and doing so negated my right to keep and bear, my gun collection would quickly be dispersed (legally transferred) to trusted friends and relatives toot-sweet.
> .
Yes- but if it was just a “maybe you might get mild relief” and “maybe there could occur other legal issues” it’s no longer so black and white.
If a magic fairy came and said instant, safe, sure relief from pain, with no other possible repercussions other than losing guns- you would be irrational to say no.
But since it’s only a maybe and mild relief at that, then the decision is not so crazy.
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### Author:  [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/54 "2018-08-24T21:38:17Z")
I didnt read past the OP so I’m sure this has been addressed already but I’d just like to point out the insanity evident in our laws and health care system that outlaw medical marijuana patients from owning guns yet permit opiate-using patients to have concealed carry permits.
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### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/55 "2018-08-24T21:40:29Z")
> [@Slash1972](#):
>
> A gun is the only thing available for self-protection?
Well, don’t know what is causing her infirmity, but I have a ccl in several states and own several assorted firearms from some antiques that never get fired to an assortment of long arms left to me by my father and brothers deaths as well as a rifle and a shotgun of my own [we grew up hunting and eating our kill, not trophy bullshit, that is obscene. You want a trophy, track and photograph.] I also have 2 hand guns that alternate as my daily carry depending on open on the hip or concealed that I regularly practice with.
In the self defense realm including castle doctrine I have no reasonable expectation of either escape or evasion of an assailant, and a hand gun is optimized for 15 to 30 feet/5 to 10 meters which is also the longest distance in either house. If someone desires to cause harm, they will be up close and personal and invading my residence, so why should I not defend myself? I can’t use my fists nor kick, I can’t jump out a window and run away, at the farm there is an admitted by the state police 45 minute response time and in the town home, something between 5 and 15 minutes. You know how fast an assailant can cover 30 feet, or chase me as I either try to crutch or wheelchair away? If I give up my daily carry guns I thusly have no defense, so I also stick with my pain control contract [and I have had random pill counts, bloodwork to assure them I have the correct amount of metabolites and no weed or other normally recreational or nonprescribed meds in my system. Done at the request of the state,not my doc, he trusts me, I have been a patient of hos for 13 years.]
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/56 "2018-08-24T22:25:16Z")
> [@Slash1972](#):
>
> Wait, if you have a medical marijuana card, you can’t even buy a gun for home defense? No type of gun at all?
Yep, that’s pretty much the case. Why do you find that surprising?
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### Author:  [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2018, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/57 "2018-08-24T23:24:22Z")
> [@Algher](#):
>
> [https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download](https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download)
>
> ATF form 4473 for purchasing ANY firearm asks in question 11E if you use illegal drugs, including marijuana. Answer truthfully, I assume you get rejected by the instant background check.
This brings up a lot of questions in my mind. I suppose first and foremost would be if the states share records of medical marijuana card holders with the feds. Lots of people who have cards are caregiver status and may just grow for the money. They could technically answer “no” on that question, assuming it’s worded exactly as you state and purchase a weapon and as long the ATF couldn’t immediately see the cardholder status and it seems like they would have a good footing if more questions were asked later. Considering the growing trend of marijuana acceptance, this whole issue should(hopefully) be moot in a few years anyway.
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### Author:  [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/58 "2018-08-24T23:34:19Z")
Any “yes” answer in question 11 on the form 4473 is disqualifying.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2018, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/59 "2018-08-25T02:24:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> If I was that invested in gun ownership I can’t say how I would decide either…but the deciding factor in my case is that My Beloved is in pain, and I can safely say that I would give up guns to get her the pain suppressors she needs…and my right arm if it was required.
As well you should.
But what set of circumstances would entail your sacrifice of the right to own a gun in order to secure her access to medical marijuana?
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### Author:  [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2018, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-someone-choose-gun-ownership-over-their-own-well-being/820199/60 "2018-08-25T13:12:13Z")
> [@Bone](#):
>
> Any “yes” answer in question 11 on the form 4473 is disqualifying.
Not to hijack, but have there been any court cases to define what a “current user” of marijuana is? I know that the BATFE has a regulation that any conviction for possession of a controlled substance within the past year is considered “current use” but that seems like an overly restrictive interpretation.
It seems to me that a court could just as easily say that as long as you are not currently and immediately using and under the influence of the drug, you may possess and carry the gun at other times.
It seems like the administration could modify that rule today: That insofar as marijuana is concerned, one may buy and possess guns so long as one is not under the immediate influence of the drug or is not at that moment using marijuana. Many states have the same law for alcohol.
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