# Why would the Nord Stream pipelines have been sabotaged? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 27, 2022, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320 "2022-09-27T14:42:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2022, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/41 "2022-09-27T22:46:09Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Remember that the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (which later became British Petroleum) got the US and Great Britain to overthrown the democratically elected leader in Iran in the 50s (Mosaddegh). Back in those times, there were fewer companies, the economies were less diversified, and the big companies had a lot more national importance through their GDP slice and employment numbers. These days, I believe that the largest contributor to the US GDP is probably Apple and I don’t think the government is likely to attack anyone just because Tim Cook asked them to. In the UK, the largest industry is “wholesale and retail trade” at 11% of the economy so, while Shell and BP are fairly large companies, oil still only contributes 3% of the value of the country. I’m sure that a company like Samsung has some pretty hefty sway in South Korea. The Zaibatsu companies in Japan produce every type of product so, even though the array of products that they produce is widely varied, they only have a few corporations. In places like that, I might see some influence over the local government. In the US and the UK, I don’t know that it’s still worth considering. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2022, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/42 "2022-09-27T23:17:37Z")
Oh, let’s also not forget about good old fashioned insurance fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/43 "2022-09-28T00:08:35Z")
It seems to me that if we are going to go down the path of non-government shenanigans, the obvious suspects would be people in the green movement. They’ve been known to attack the oil and gas infrastructure before. There are a large number of greens who oppose oil and gas pipelines. If they are willing to derail trains, set up blockades and spike trees for environmental purposes they’d certainly be willing to sabotage a pipeline - especially if the side benefit is hurting Putin. Perhaps someone is worried that Europe is going to get off the renewables train in favor of natural gas, and they decided to throw a wrench into that. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/44 "2022-09-28T00:36:32Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > > I think some corporations might deserve some consideration here. > > The risk is so high, who would do that? A major shareholder? (Although, Cheniere Energy is only up 2.43% today.) ETA: The Vanguard Group just made nearly $76 million today on that one energy stock. **Top Owners of Cheniere Energy Inc** | The Vanguard Group, Inc. | 8.40% | 20,976,021 | | --- | --- | --- | | BlackRock Fund Advisors | 4.64% | 11,579,611 | | Fidelity Management & Research Co… | 4.31% | 10,773,122 | | SSgA Funds Management, Inc. | 2.77% | 6,907,164 | ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/45 "2022-09-28T00:44:52Z")
Do environmentalists posses the equipment necessary to sabotage a deep water pipeline in deep water? I can’t imagine that is an easy thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/46 "2022-09-28T00:48:19Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I can’t imagine that is an easy thing to do. I think it might be easier than people think. Weighted IEDs dropped from any surface vessel might do the trick. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/47 "2022-09-28T01:03:50Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Do environmentalists posses the equipment necessary to sabotage a deep water pipeline in deep water? I can’t imagine that is an easy thing to do. It was apparently only 300 ft down. Anyone could do it. A technical diver, or as mentioned above someone with a bomb and a camera and 300’ of cable to lower it. Or, you could use a cheap underwater ROV. ‘Cheap’ by organization standards. A few thousand bucks. This one can go to 1,000 ft and has an HD camera: [https://www.blueyerobotics.com/products/pro](https://www.blueyerobotics.com/products/pro) $16,000, ready to go. They have lesser models down to $6500. Any of them could do the job. That’s easily affordable by any number of groups, or even individuals. Put a 1 kg shaped charge on the bottom of it, land it on top of the pipeline, and boom. I’m sure there are many such options out there. For that matter, such an ROV would not be hard to build for an advanced hobbyist. Or heck, this $1700 amazon ROV could probably do it: [https://www.amazon.ca/GLADIUS-Underwater-Drone-Camera-Flight/dp/B09C1P7SHK/ref=asc\_df\_B09C1P7SHK/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=588570557428&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13951315769586551030&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001286&hvtargid=pla-1740726380152&psc=1](https://www.amazon.ca/GLADIUS-Underwater-Drone-Camera-Flight/dp/B09C1P7SHK/ref=asc_df_B09C1P7SHK/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=588570557428&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13951315769586551030&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001286&hvtargid=pla-1740726380152&psc=1) We live in an era where tremendous economic damage can be done pretty easily. I’ll bet there are divers there now looking for bits of exploded drone or other evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/48 "2022-09-28T01:06:31Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > it would be remarkable to me if such pipelines were engineered that such a thing could happen (where one hole leads to lots of other holes) You are familiar with Russian engineered Chernobyl, correct? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/49 "2022-09-28T01:12:23Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > Back in the USSR … days, allegedly the Americans (the CIA will neither confirm nor deny) planted some trojan horse software flaws in pump technology the Russians stole. Apparently when they applied the tech to pipelines, it caused a massive explosion when a gas supply pipeline burst in the dead of winter. The entire town of Norilsk was without gas supplies and had to be evacuated. That was during the Reagan administration. As the story goes, the pipeline explosion was coupled with George HW Bush (who had connections in Saudi Arabia from his CIA days) convincing the Saudis to pump more oil to drive the price down. Gas and oil even then were a huge part of the Soviet Union’s income. It was part of a coordinated campaign to stress the Soviet Union financially, militarily and morally to break them. It’s probably also one reason why the Saudis have gotten so much slack from America for their human rights abuses. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/50 "2022-09-28T07:18:49Z")
Russia’s state-run news agency TASS is now reporting that [Radosław Sikorski, a Polish MEP and Poland’s former foreign minister, has thanked the United States for the damage to Nord Stream 2](https://tass.com/politics/1514405). There’s no actual quote from Sikorski, nor any context that indicates why he thinks that the US is responsible. Does anyone have further information on this? ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/51 "2022-09-28T09:10:24Z")
Politico writes the Western line to take is it was the Russians: > **[Baltic brinksmanship: Pipeline blasts signal potential new front in Ukraine war](https://www.politico.eu/article/baltic-brinksmanship-pipeline-blasts-signal-potential-new-front-in-ukraine-war/)** > > If undersea energy and communications infrastructure are now a Russian target, Western navies will have to take rapid action. And the [EU declares](https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/international/energie-ergebnis-einer-vorsaetzlichen-handlung-eu-vermutet-sabotage-hinter-nord-stream-lecks/28710518.html) that whoever it was will face sanctions, which they would not dare to impose on the USA. (link in German, suppose it can be found in other languages or translated with Deepl(dot)com) The statement was repeated by the President of the Commission, Ms Ursula von der Leyen, the President of the Council of the EU, Mr. Charles Michel, and the High Representative of the External Action Service, Mr. Josep Borrell. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/52 "2022-09-28T09:27:06Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > It seems to me that if we are going to go down the path of non-government shenanigans, the obvious suspects would be people in the green movement. They’ve been known to attack the oil and gas infrastructure before. There are a large number of greens who oppose oil and gas pipelines. The green movement opposes pipelines because of the risk of environmental damage. Methane gas is the worst greenhouse gas (if not the worst), AFAIK. Damaging a pipeline, causing massive venting of methane gas, would be directly opposed to what environmentalists want. None of them would cause an oil spill or a gas leak in order to oppose oil spills or gas leaks. It is _maybe_ arguable that they could access diving equipment or remote cameras. It is _not_ arguable that the green movement had access to 300kg of high explosive. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/53 "2022-09-28T09:49:51Z")
The most harmless possibility would be IMHO some rich maverick with almighty fantasies. I hope it was Elon Musk, I haven’t heard anything stupid from him for two weeks or so. It is highly improbable, I know, but it would be the best option I can think of right now. Peter Thiel would be even better. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/54 "2022-09-28T10:04:23Z")
There is one angle that makes me suspect Russia is the only actor who could rationally have decided on it: **the significant risk of such an operation being found out, beforehand, during or after** - **A corporation or nonprofit is caught red handed** : That entity is history; a non-profit’s goals would be disavoved by a lot of people; the persons involved get double digit prison terms; severe damage to reputation of investors/backers. - **A state party other than Russia is caught red handed** : Relations of that state party with Germany (as well as with other Western European countries feeling the gas squeeze) are shattered. In the case of Ukraine being caught red handed public opinion would press the German government to immediately stop any support to Ukraine and show the 1.1 million Ukrainian refugees in Germany the door. - **Russia is caught red handed** : That would be received with shrugs all round. Nobody’s attitude towards Russia gets changed. After all we know Russia has for years sent assassins to Western Europe, attacked IT infrastructure, and has not even bothered to be subtle about it. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/55 "2022-09-28T10:35:47Z")
> [@Mops](#): > > There is one angle that makes me suspect Russia is the only actor who could rationally have decided on it: **the significant risk of such an operation being found out, beforehand, during or after** Very well put! Another point: It’s hard to discern a rational Russian motive in this act, but this year has witnessed Russia repeatedly attempting to destabilize Europe – even to the point of significant self-harm. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/56 "2022-09-28T11:22:13Z")
I think that the “internal rival” angle and the “false flag for escalation” angle, _when combined_, seem a plausible enough motive given Putin’s implausible previous acts. Whoever would benefit from the gas line being intact is hurt, and as a bonus you have an excuse in case you want to expand the war. Which isn’t to say that Russia did it, but it’s more plausible than all other actors combined. I don’t know enough about pipelines to be sure if sabotage or accident are more plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/57 "2022-09-28T11:32:07Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I don’t know enough about pipelines to be sure if sabotage or accident are more plausible. I doubt that an explosion which is 2.4 richter could happened by accident. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/58 "2022-09-28T11:55:51Z")
Gonna go with SPECTRE. _What?_ From the peanut gallery, best argument so far is for Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/59 "2022-09-28T13:10:05Z")
If I had to bet I would say it was the US, the UK, Germany itself (in “burning the ships” gesture) or some other pro-Ukraine party, Russia had nothing to gain from sabotaging the pipeline, it takes away a very useful negotiation tool. Taking away that negotiation tool on the other hand _is_ in the interest of the aforementioned pro-Ukraine parties. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/60 "2022-09-28T13:49:22Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > There’s no actual quote from Sikorski, nor any context that indicates why he thinks that the US is responsible. Does anyone have further information on this? TASS follows the Moses method. The information came from up on high, gifted to them from up upon the mountain, and they simply repeat the words. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320.md?page=4)