# Why would the Nord Stream pipelines have been sabotaged? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 27, 2022, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320 "2022-09-27T14:42:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/61 "2022-09-28T13:51:41Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > TASS follows the Moses method. The information came from up on high, gifted to them from up upon the mountain, and they simply repeat the words. Not in my experience. They’re certainly biased but they don’t tend to make up trivially falsifiable facts out of whole cloth. The bias is evident more in what news they choose to report and what spin they put on it. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/62 "2022-09-28T13:53:52Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > They’re certainly biased but they don’t tend to make up trivially falsifiable facts out of whole cloth. The bias is evident more in what news they choose to report and what spin they put on it. Wartime is different. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/63 "2022-09-28T14:12:55Z")
Well, I’ll have to take that back: > **[NATO Says Sabotage Behind Destruction Of Natural Gas Pipelines](https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2022/09/27/nato-says-sabotage-behind-destruction-of-natural-gas-pipelines/)** > > NATO's Secretary-General says sabotage caused the leaks in two natural gas pipelines from Russia to Germany, and a debate has erupted over who caused it. > **[Radosław Sikorski](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rados%C5%82aw_Sikorski)** > > Radosław Tomasz "Radek" Sikorski (\[raˈdɔswaf ɕiˈkɔrskʲi\] (listen); born 23 February 1963) is a Polish politician and journalist who is a Member of the European Parliament. He was Marshal of the Sejm from 2014 to 2015 and Minister of Foreign Affairs in Donald Tusk's cabinet between 2007 and 2014. He previously served as Deputy Minister of National Defense (1992) in Jan Olszewski's cabinet, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs (1998–2001) in Jerzy Buzek's cabinet and Minister of National Defense (2... He certainly seems like someone who could know and like someone who we can say is firmly on the West’s side. Apparently, he’s added a follow-up tweet, so he seems to have not been hacked. Hard to know if he’s stupid and let the beans out for no cognizable purpose or if he’s stupid and decided to post his pet theory, without considering his position. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/64 "2022-09-28T14:46:17Z")
The way Russia publicly reacts to this story over the next few days might be a “tell.” “[Russia intends to call a UN Security Council meeting](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/sep/28/russia-ukraine-war-live-news-west-rejects-referendum-results-nord-stream-sabotage-denounced?page=with:block-633457bc8f08ef7e8107bf8e#block-633457bc8f08ef7e8107bf8e) over damage to two Nord Stream undersea gas pipelines, according to the Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova.” ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/65 "2022-09-28T16:18:20Z")
Vanguard is the largest holder of just about everything by virtue of the enormous indexed positions of its funds’ shareholders. They have something like $8 Trillion in assets under management. So, for every dollar Vanguard has under management, their shareholders gained approximately 0.0001 cents from Cheniere Energy. On an annualized basis, that amounts to a 0.3% gain and to repeat that, Vanguard would need to blow up a pipeline a day with the same results. Hardly seems worth it to me. Also, Vanguard doesn’t really benefit - its funds’ shareholders do instead. And, because all they are doing is indexing (for the most part), all Vanguard would really accomplish is to generate outsize returns for the people with relatively concentrated positions in the company. This seems unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/66 "2022-09-28T16:18:58Z")
All the speculation and finger pointing reminds me of “The Monsters are Due on Mulberry Street.” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/67 "2022-09-28T16:36:57Z")
Huh. So where were _you_ when these pipelines blew, @k9bfriender??? 😝 ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/68 "2022-09-28T16:38:18Z")
Just out walking my dogs… And before you ask, yes, I always bring along an underwater ROV with me on my walks. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/69 "2022-09-28T16:46:40Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > The green movement opposes pipelines because of the risk of environmental damage. Methane gas is the worst greenhouse gas (if not the worst), AFAIK. > > Damaging a pipeline, causing massive venting of methane gas, would be directly opposed to what environmentalists want. None of them would cause an oil spill or a gas leak in order to oppose oil spills or gas leaks. And yet, they do this stuff. They derail fuel shipping trains which can cause local environmental damage. An eco terrorist in Canada blew up oil wells, causing spills. There have been a number of pipeline attacks in the past two decades. From an eco-terrorist point of view, it makes sense. It’s worth a one-time leak to scare people away from pipelines, and therefore away from fossil fuels. It’s a big enough issue that pipeline security is a huge field of research and development. But I just threw that out there as a possibility to point out that given the shallow,depth of the pipeline the sabotage could have been from any number of groups. I have no idea who did it. I said earlier that this probably wasn’t Russia because it was hard to see how they would benefit. But this is interesting: [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-22/russia-says-terror-attack-thwarted-on-energy-link-to-turkey-eu](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-22/russia-says-terror-attack-thwarted-on-energy-link-to-turkey-eu) > [@](#): > > Russia’s security service said it thwarted a planned Ukrainian attack on infrastructure delivering energy to Turkey and Europe – a claim Kyiv denied. > > The gas market is particularly sensitive to this kind of developments as Moscow has used disruptions at energy infrastructure in the past to justify curtailments to supplies. The security services of the two countries have traded similar [accusations](https://ssu.gov.ua/novyny/sbu-vykryla-u-kyievi-ahenturnu-hrupu-fsb-yaka-peredavala-vorohu-koordynaty-stolychnykh-tets-dlia-zryvu-opaliuvalnoho-sezonu-video) in the past. So Russia blamed the Ukraine for a supposed terrorist attack on another pipeline six days ago. Today, Ukraine is blaming Russia for the new pipeline attacks. So if Russia was trying a false flag operation, this could be part of it - especially if the damage is relatively easy to repair. Or, if you are inclined to believe Russia, the attempted attack by Ukraine on pipelines six days ago would be evidence that they did this attack as well, to remove the possibility of the EU negotiating with Russia at Ukraine’s expense, or to point out how fragile reliance on Russian gas can be. Frankly, it makes more sense that Ukraine would have done these attacks. Putin being an evil bastard does not eliminate the possibility that occasionally Russia is telling the truth. And Ukraine has better motives for an attack. But again, no one really knows at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/70 "2022-09-28T16:47:52Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Just out walking my dogs… > > And before you ask, yes, I always bring along an underwater ROV with me on my walks. Especially if they are dogfish. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/71 "2022-09-28T18:02:17Z")
Well, here is Joe Biden saying that we would put an end to Nord Stream 2 if Russia invades Ukraine. From Newsweek just this morning. [Video of Biden Saying He’d ‘End’ Nord Stream Resurfaces After Pipeline Leak (newsweek.com)](https://www.newsweek.com/video-biden-saying-end-nord-stream-resurfaces-after-pipeline-leak-1747005) ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/72 "2022-09-28T18:18:55Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > Which oil company could get which state to do that for them today? Or which state could use which oil company as a cover or excuse? Oh, how soon they forget. How much money was (literally) flown into Iraq with absolutely no accountability? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/73 "2022-09-28T18:19:03Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > Well, here is Joe Biden saying that we would put an end to Nord Stream 2 if Russia invades Ukraine. From Newsweek just this morning. Yep, but he also said it back in February and didn’t do so. Assuming that the US pulled the trigger, it’s because there was some catalyst to choosing now as the time. It’s pretty damn coincidental that the Baltic Pipe was launched just a few hours after the explosion. The info we have that casts the spotlight on the US as the culprit comes from the Polish representative in the EU government. Poland is one of the largest allies of Ukraine, they have a profit motive to killing Nord Stream, and they’re going to have oil washing up on shore for the next couple of months. Given that there’s a variety of pros and cons involved and all of this affects the EU, in general, and the Baltic region in particular, it would make sense to coordinate it through the EU government and to get signoff from the representatives of those countries that will be most impacted. Sweden, The Netherlands, and Poland would have been directly contacted by the EU leadership, and asked to approve or veto the action. This leads to the Polish PM in the EU to being aware of it, knowing who was going to do it, and also being complicit in it. The EU, in general, would also be complicit in it. This isn’t too say that “complicit” means “bad”, just that it’s probably not an independent, unilateral choice of the USA. If the US did it, it’s probably just because we had the best equipment to get the job done and the least to fear, in terms of reprisals. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/74 "2022-09-28T18:28:57Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > and they’re going to have oil washing up on shore for the next couple of months. Why? I thought this was a natural gas pipeline. Are you saying it was carrying oil as well? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/75 "2022-09-28T18:37:12Z")
Woops, ignore that part, I guess. 😛 Though: [Nord Stream: Russian gas pipe leaks could have an 'unprecedented' environmental impact | Euronews](https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/09/28/nord-stream-russian-gas-pipe-leaks-could-have-an-unprecedented-environmental-impact) ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/76 "2022-09-28T19:21:30Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > Oh, how soon they forget. How much money was (literally) flown into Iraq with absolutely no accountability? I don’t think we are talking about the same thing, but never mind. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The info we have that casts the spotlight on the US as the culprit comes from the **Polish representative in the EU government**. > [Bolding mine] No, he is one of 52 Polish members of the EU Parliament (705 seats in total), he is currently not a member of any government at all. [This](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_European_Parliament_(2019%E2%80%932024)) is the breakdown of the EU Parliament. We are talking about [Radosław Tomasz “Radek” Sikorski](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rados%C5%82aw_Sikorski), who was once defense minister in Donald Tusk’s cabinet 2007-2014. Not a member of the now ruling party in Poland. He is politically very close to the USA (see Wikipedia link above). I wonder why he said that. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Poland […] they’re going to have oil washing up on shore for the next couple of months. No, it is gas, and it does not pollute coasts. It is bad for global warming, but that is completely different. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > it would make sense to coordinate it through the EU government I wonder what you mean by that. There is the European Commission, the European Council, the EU Parliament and 27 governments in the Member States. But there is no EU government that I know of. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The EU, in general, would also be complicit in it. What!?!?!? Complicit in what? ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/77 "2022-09-28T19:25:10Z")
So all the nations with coasts on the Baltic Sea must cooperate so the pipeline does not become a thousands of kilometeres long underwater garden hose (the kind with holes) bubbling out gobs of methane to the surface? I am seeing @k9bfriender 's “The Monsters are Due on Mulberry Street.” reference as quite relevant. > This is Maple Street on a late Saturday afternoon. Maple Street in the last calm and reflective moment –before the monsters came. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/78 "2022-09-28T19:35:59Z")
No, I don’t think so. The pipeline was sealed at both ends when it exploded, it was pressurized to 105 bar, which for a 1,234-kilometre-long (767 mi) natural gas pipeline with a diameter of about 1 m (judging by the pictures) is plenty of gas, but not inconceivable much. A ship with liquefied gas carries much more. Most of it has probably bubbled out already, the problem now is for the pipeline itself: it is filling with dirty, sandy, debris saturated salty water. Not good for a 17 bn $ investment with pumps and moving valves some 100 or more feet under water. The Russians are not going to pump more gas into that in the forseeable future, concerning the leaking gas there is nothing to do and not much to worry about. The damage is done, but it is more of a political nature. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/79 "2022-09-28T19:54:46Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I wonder what you mean by that. There is the European Commission, the European Council, the EU Parliament and 27 governments in the Member States. But there is no EU government that I know of. Likewise, the US government has the House, the Senate, the Executive Branch, the President, the Supreme Court, the DOJ, etc. Breaking something down into its constituent parts doesn’t change what is is. The EU passes laws and it executes those laws, it’s able to enforce those laws through [sanctions](https://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/67941) and the ability to [deny states certain rights](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_7_of_the_Treaty_on_European_Union). It’s a [Federalist system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism) and lets the member states make most of their own laws and push back against the agenda of the EU government, but it’s still a government - just a weak one. The UN, on the other hand, is missing any ability to enforce any of its proclamations and really is just a big club for everyone to perform diplomacy at. I wouldn’t, personally, view it as a government yet. > [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > Complicit in what? Sabotaging the lines. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/80 "2022-09-28T20:08:05Z")
That was my thought as well- basically it cuts off money to Russia and removes one of the big levers that the Russians could use to extract concessions from Western Europe. Those things both benefit Ukraine more than anyone else. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320.md?page=5)