# Why would you still give GW Bush your vote? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478 "2004-05-16T21:34:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/181 "2004-05-23T19:20:37Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Let’s see, income tax, sales tax, property tax, gasoline tax, auto registration fees, license plate fees, village sticker fee, and tolls. Of course, nearly everybody thinks they are paying more and getting less than most everyone else. Hell, if Dick Cheney, a man who almost surely owed his cushy CEO job to his Washington connections (and who did manage to handsomely increase Halliburton’s government contracts) can say, “the government had nothing to do with it” in reference to his own financial situation, then there are truly no bounds to this sort of sanctimonious attitude! ---
**Author:** ![cheddarsnax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cheddarsnax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cheddarsnax)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/182 "2004-05-23T21:28:00Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Let’s see, income tax, sales tax, property tax, gasoline tax, auto registration fees, license plate fees, village sticker fee, and tolls. > > I AM paying for the roads. That’s not the point, milroyj. The point is that there are those who don’t drive cars, and every time you drive, you are stealing from them, because they pay part of the cost for your roads, and pay to give you low-cost gasoline. You are stealing from every American who does not own a car, by your own standards. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/183 "2004-05-24T01:22:29Z")
> [@cheddarsnax](#): > > That’s not the point, milroyj. The point is that there are those who don’t drive cars, and every time you drive, you are stealing from them, because they pay part of the cost for your roads, and pay to give you low-cost gasoline. You are stealing from every American who does not own a car, by your own standards. I disagree. Every consumable item, including welfare checks, are ultimately delivered via roadways. Roads serve everyone and are probably the best example of a self-serving tax. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/184 "2004-05-24T03:26:40Z")
> [@cheddarsnax](#): > > That’s not the point, milroyj. The point is that there are those who don’t drive cars, and every time you drive, you are stealing from them, because they pay part of the cost for your roads, and pay to give you low-cost gasoline. You are stealing from every American who does not own a car, by your own standards. People who don’t drive cars don’t pay registration and license fees, gasoline taxes, tolls, etc. Who am I stealing from, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/185 "2004-05-24T04:17:59Z")
> [@](#): > > I disagree. Every consumable item, including welfare checks, are ultimately delivered via roadways. Roads serve everyone and are probably the best example of a self-serving tax. Which was my point. A healthy, well educated population serves everyone and is good for the country. Thus, taxes for these services are self-serving. I also believe that funding for Arts and Sciences are also in the interest of the country as a whole; therefore, taxes to support them are also ultimately self-serving. > [@](#): > > But will you be better off after four years of Kerry? If I could foretell the future, I’d buy a lottery ticket. But based on Bush’s performance over his term of office, I would guess that I probably will be better off with Kerry at the helm. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/186 "2004-05-24T04:44:08Z")
How does “Art” benefit anyone? It is so subjective as to be virtually irrelevant. Paying someone to insult me with a Cross in a jar of urine is not art, it’s social commentary at my expense. If an artist is worth seeing it is worth buying. Let the market display it for profit. ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/187 "2004-05-24T09:47:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > How does “Art” benefit anyone? It is so subjective as to be virtually irrelevant. Paying someone to insult me with a Cross in a jar of urine is not art, it’s social commentary at my expense. > > If an artist is worth seeing it is worth buying. Let the market display it for profit. I find it interesting how you and those of a similar ilk pick 3,5, 10 or whatever small number of controversial art pieces and then consign ALL art to the same category. Art is a huge subject encompassing many different styles and types of work. Some you may like, some (or many) you may not. Others may feel differently. Therefore, what you think is “worth seeing” may not be what I feel is worth seeing. But what if I am in charge of art in the world and my only criteria for displaying art is what will people pay to see? Well, you would face a very limited and redundant repertoire of pieces and styles, none of which you may appreciate. Government support of art eliminates the simplistic pure profit theme you allude to. You don’t sound like you have had much exposure to a variety of art. Or perhaps you are just trying to make your point by isolating, again, a relatively few controversial pieces? In any case, should you want to take a tour through the history of art, you might want to look at this [art timeline link](http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/splash.htm?HomePageLink=toah_l) which will allow you to wander though many periods of art history. Perhaps you’ll find something interesting. Now, if the sole criteria for the value of art was only what people would pay for, most of what you’ll find at this link probably would have been destroyed long ago. Appreciation of art is a major part of what makes us human. Art has been part of the human experience since the earliest recorded history, from cave drawings to personal ornaments made out of polished stones or teeth of animals killed. An interesting theory [HERE](http://www.cosmos-club.org/journals/2001/platt.html) is that the act of drawing, such as the pictures made of animals on cave walls 30-40 thousand years ago were the precursor to developing a spoken and written language. So without art we may not have developed language! A person unable to appreciate art or its value in and to society is a person without soul. Finally, here’s an excerpt from a good overview on the value and need for the arts in human society [(LINK)](http://www.ndoylefineart.com/artapprec.html) > [@](#): > > We live in a world of sometimes brutal speed and pressure. Without the humanizing influence of art, people become more desensitized and alienated. What is difficult for an adult to deal with becomes impossible for a child. I’m thinking of the series of school shootings, for example. Art has the same effect on humans as nature - one gets an appreciation of the beauty, fragility and preciousness of all creation, including ourselves. And of the interconnectedness of all life. Without this spirit, corporations can deceive consumers about the hazards of their products; create defective cars and other products that take human lives; leave toxic waste near schools and neighborhoods, and not seem to have any sense of accountability or human feeling. Art is a creative, not destructive, activity, and soothes the savage beast with its only aim to enrich, extol, cry out, or joyfully be alive. Its side effects are gentleness, generosity of spirit, appreciation of other cultures, innocence, bliss, sensitivity, industriousness, earnestness, goodwill and understanding, for artists and viewers. > > It is estimated that 1% of artists are able to make a living from their work. Most are not making money - they’re doing it because their genetic makeup precludes not doing it - they have a vision to express, and will sacrifice everything to express it. Many have full-time jobs, and paint/sculpt/write/compose nights and weekends, or even driving down the highway, and also work on their career activities - exhibitions, book publishers, galleries, etc. This is a 7-day-a-week proposition, often with no material gain. There were many years when I was happy to break even in my expenses for materials, frames, etc. So, the idea of a scam is ludicrous. > > Another misconception about art is that it exists mostly for those with the economic means to buy it. Quite simply, art is for everyone - not an elite. To be an artist only takes sensitivity, maybe some training, and a vision. Most are not born with this vision - it develops gradually with working. And it is a being rather than a doing - I find that I am looking at the world as one gigantic painting - everything is colors and shapes - not labeled objects with objectively defined names and characteristics. I get impulses to create from in my car, at the supermarket, at the dentist’s office. It is an ever-present consciousness. Which explains the spaced-out personalities of many artists. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/188 "2004-05-24T13:23:42Z")
> [@](#): > > How does “Art” benefit anyone? It is so subjective as to be virtually irrelevant. Perhaps you didn’t read my previous post? > [@](#): > > But what of the Arts? Do the Arts keep people physically able to keep the economy going, like UHC? Do they educate people so that they can obtain better jobs? Of what use are they? The Arts stimulate people’s minds. We hear a lot about “thinking outside the box”. Much of art – music, paintings, sculpture, you name it – involves the manipulation of symbols. Manipulating symbols and concepts are central to this “outside the box” thinking that is so prized in our business. Art results in new ideas. New ideas are often profitable – which is good for the country. Art does not just benefit the artist. It stimulates people’s minds. Suppose the government did not pay for sculpture, for example. There’s a very famous sculpture of a guy sitting in a chair in Washington D.C. Millions and millions of people have visited it. The image of this sculpture is on one of our coins. People all over the world have benefited from the message this sculpture brings. It has brought about social change by reminding people what it means to be American. Without government support for the Arts, the Lincoln Memorial would not exist. Public sculpture, often or usually supported by government funds, sends a message to people. Sometimes the message is one the government wants to send. Sometimes the government just wants some decoration. But whether it’s to inspire the public or just to make things not so drab, Art serves a purpose to the public. It often becomes a symbol af America. The Statue of Liberty (a gift, though the base was, IIRC, paid for by bonds) is art. What good is it? Maybe we should never have accepted it? Maybe we should just tear it down? But as I said before, art stimulates the mind. Much of the social change in this country came about because of music. Without rock’n’roll, what kind of country would we be today? It was not supported by public funds, but you can’t deny its power. Why did the government send people like Glen Miller overseas during WWII? What good did Miller and other entertainment (art people!) do? Did they bomb Berlin? Did they shoot any enemy soldiers? No. But I’ll bet that if you asked most people who were there, the government support of the art of Music was important to the war effort. But the most important thing about art as it relates to the economy is, as I’ve already said, that it generates new ideas. How many people have gone into a publicly supported museum and have seen one work of art or another, and thought, “Hey. That gives me an idea!”? An artist may make some bit of modern sculpture, and an engineer may see it and think, “Eureka! I can modify my machine by doing _this!_” Then these people, inspired by Art, go out and create a new widget that is useful to many people and which is profitable to them. Art is good for society. It is good for the economy. It is good for the human condition. “Piss Christ” is offensive; no doubt about it. People make jokes all the time about modern art. “That urinal is not for use, sir. It’s an _exhibit!_” But you know? I’ve never seen such things in a public museum. Offensive exhibits are few and far between. To say that “Piss Christ” represents the art world is like someone saying that all [insert ethnic group here] are criminals because one of them robbed a liquor store, or that all people who live in trailer parks are slack-jawed yokels because a few of them have pink flamingoes in their yards. Most art is not offensive. Most of it is meant to inspire. (Indeed, even “Piss Christ” is meant to inspire; though I personally find it in very bad taste.) Some art is incomprehensible. Many people don’t understand it. Yet the act of _trying_ to understand it is beneficial. Trying to understand things has the effect of expanding the mind. The image of this thing that cannot be understood remains in the minds of many viewers; and it may result in a very profitable innovation at a later date. _You_ may not invent a new mechanism because you saw some piece of sculpture in a museum; but others might. And you might benefit when you buy the new widget. And stores will benefit by selling it. And the inventor will benefit from its proceeds. And the government will benefit by taxing the inventor. And those taxes will go into the General Fund that supports our roads and other infrastructure. Put another way: “For want of a nail, the shoe was lost; For want of the shoe, the horse was lost; For want of the horse, the rider was lost; For want of the rider, the battle was lost; For want of the battle, the kingdom was lost; And all for the want of a nail.” I doesn’t matter to you, at the time, that some schmoe lost a horseshoe nail. But it _does_ matter to you when, for want of that little nail, your country is defeated. Art creates a ripple effect. One piece or another may mean nothing to you now. It may be so incomprehensible to you that you wonder why anyone even bothered making it. But each piece has the potential to caue great change. And without change, comes stagnation. With stagnation comes decay. Art is beneficial to a country. Sometimes it’s beneficial financially. Sometimes it’s beneficial socially. Sometimes it’s beneficial personally. And this is why it should be supported. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/189 "2004-05-24T13:43:52Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > People who don’t drive cars don’t pay registration and license fees, gasoline taxes, tolls, etc. > > Who am I stealing from, exactly? These fees and taxes don’t even begin to cover the costs, by a wide variety of estimates. (See, for example, [this](http://www.sierraclub.org/sprawl/articles/subsidies.asp) Sierra Club pages for references to various studies.) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/190 "2004-05-24T14:00:39Z")
This thread has gotten way off-track from the OP. Maybe there should be a new thread like **Is Art good for the economy?** or **Should taxes be used for programs not everyone uses?**. But I’m out of time, so I’ll have to leave that to someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/191 "2004-05-24T19:17:44Z")
> [@iamme99](#): > > But what if I am in charge of art in the world and my only criteria for displaying art is what will people pay to see? Then you are in the same position as every other business owner in the free world. > [@iamme99](#): > > Well, you would face a very limited and redundant repertoire of pieces and styles, none of which you may appreciate. Government support of art eliminates the simplistic pure profit theme you allude to. Right, just like the limited and redundant repetoire of every other consumer product in America. Which fully explains why every car in America is a black model T. > [@iamme99](#): > > Appreciation of art is a major part of what makes us human. Art has been part of the human experience since the earliest recorded history, from cave drawings to personal ornaments made out of polished stones or teeth of animals killed. So you are saying that those cave paintings and jewelry would never have come into existence without a large federal grant? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/192 "2004-05-26T21:07:55Z")
So many righties, singing the same song…“mememememememememememmineIIIImememememememMinemine minememmeIIIIIIImememememememememe” ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/193 "2004-05-27T00:00:46Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > So many righties, singing the same song…“mememememememememememmineIIIImememememememMinemine minememmeIIIIIIImememememememememe” Hey, at least when a rightie says “me” or “mine”, he means it. When a leftie says “me” or “mine”, she means everybody else’s. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/194 "2004-05-27T00:16:38Z")
**Stoid:** There is no virtue in spending other people’s money on things you think are important. Unless you volunteer for soup kitchens or voluntarily give your income to charity, you have no right to call other people selfish because they don’t support the kind of forced redistribution of wealth that you might support. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478.md?page=9)