# Why would you still give GW Bush your vote? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478 "2004-05-16T21:34:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![cheddarsnax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cheddarsnax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cheddarsnax)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/81 "2004-05-18T02:34:06Z")
> [@Senggüm](#): > > Dude, if you are **not** a registered US voter, you are just passing wind. Check it out, as stated previously, with either US political party or political pollsters. Nobody really cares, especially, about a foreigner’s opinion concerning a US political election :rolleyes: Maybe you don’t care, but I do. Sure, they have absolutely no influence over the actual election, but sometimes it can be useful to get the perspective of someone who’s not inside the US political system. If you disagree, fine, but you don’t have to get so damn worked up about it. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/82 "2004-05-18T02:34:54Z")
> [@Senggüm](#): > > Absolutely correct, they are not part of the **US political process**. Good point! Don’t suppose you heard about Madrid, eh? Can we take it, then, that you won’t be posting on any political and cultural events _you_ are powerless to change? ---
**Author:** ![Senggum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@Senggum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senggum)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/83 "2004-05-18T02:37:35Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > For the record, just in case: the recession began in March 2001. Just another leftist fabrication: > [@](#): > > “The panel of economists that serves as the official timekeeper for the nation’s recessions is considering moving the starting date for the most recent economic decline back to November or December of 2000, a member of the group said today, confirming a report that appeared in The Wall Street Journal.” ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/84 "2004-05-18T02:41:16Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > by **Machetero** > Help me understand here. Articulate who this greater enemy might be. Last time I checked “left wingnut” posters are not running the country. War-seeking cowboys are. This War on Terror that you yourself call a total fuck up has cost hundreds of lives, has deemphasized the importance of our civil liberties through the Patriot Act, has sullied our international credibility, has made our leaders look like clueless negligent gullible tinkletwats _at best_, and has left us and at least another country more vunerable to terrorism than to begin with. Amidst all of this, we have a frighteningly large percentage of the American public believing that to fight Al Queda all we simply need to do is escalate the fighting in Iraq, and this ignorant view has been insiduously and deliberately perpetuated by the current administration. Billions of dollars are being dispensed into a project that has its key players making shit up as they go along, with no preparations or realistic expectations (“we will be greeted with candies and flowers”) to lead the way. And now that the Abu Gharib allegations are surfacing, the WOT has further kicked us and our reputation and everything that we _should_ be standing for in the knees. > > So tell me. What are the domestic issues that come anywhere near the importance of this little ole thing called war? My paycheck and my culture. I’m actually quite ‘liberal’ on alot of issues, so I probably shouldn’t use ‘left wingnut’, but in general, a Democrat President and Democrat control in Congress, is more likely to harm me on a personal level in $ or attacks on my lifestyle/culture. Ardent supporters of Kerry will often be bunnyhuggers / treehuggers / gungrabbers. My arch enemies. The question was why would you vote for Bush. Because he is my lesser enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Senggum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@Senggum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senggum)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/85 "2004-05-18T02:42:13Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Don’t suppose you heard about Madrid, eh? > > Can we take it, then, that you won’t be posting on any political and cultural events _you_ are powerless to change? Spaniard’s aren’t US registered voter, what’s your point? They are meaningless to the US political process! ---
**Author:** ![cheddarsnax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cheddarsnax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cheddarsnax)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/86 "2004-05-18T02:43:22Z")
**Senggüm** : Here’s a [link](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A38826-2004Jan22?language=printer) for your cite. Not that: [ol] [li]The article clearly states that at the time it was written the recession’s start date was officially set as March 2001[/li][li]The article says that they are only considering moving the start date, not that they have actually done so[/li][/ol] Furthermore, the [website](http://www.nber.org/cycles/cyclesmain.html) of the organization that makes this determination lists the recession as beginning March 2001 and ending November 2001. This is clearly _not_, as you claimed, a “leftist fabrication.” ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/87 "2004-05-18T02:43:58Z")
> [@Master Wang-Ka](#): > > …preferring actual solutions to lies, crap and soundbites makes me a left wingnut? Which canidate is offering solutions, not full of crap, not a liar, and not using soundbites? It isn’t Bush or Kerry. ---
**Author:** ![cheddarsnax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cheddarsnax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cheddarsnax)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/88 "2004-05-18T02:45:15Z")
**Note** that. > [@Senggüm](#): > > Spaniard’s aren’t US registered voter, what’s your point? They are meaningless to the US political process! **furt** ’s point was that many who decry foreign comments on US politics were quick to comment on Spain’s politics when the opposition party won the national elections earlier this year shortly after massive terrorist bombings in that country. ---
**Author:** ![Senggum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@Senggum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senggum)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/89 "2004-05-18T02:50:13Z")
> [@cheddarsnax](#): > > **Senggüm** : Here’s a [link](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A38826-2004Jan22?language=printer) for your cite. Not that: > [ol] > [li]The article clearly states that at the time it was written the recession’s start date was officially set as March 2001[/li][li]The article says that they are only considering moving the start date, not that they have actually done so[/li][/ol] > Furthermore, the [website](http://www.nber.org/cycles/cyclesmain.html) of the organization that makes this determination lists the recession as beginning March 2001 and ending November 2001. This is clearly _not_, as you claimed, a “leftist fabrication.” “… **official** timekeeper for the nation’s recessions is considering moving the starting date for the most recent economic decline back to November or December of 2000 …” Notice the word **official** … ---
**Author:** ![cheddarsnax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cheddarsnax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cheddarsnax)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/90 "2004-05-18T02:55:29Z")
**Senggüm** , you didn’t disprove my point. From my previously linked article, emphasis mine: > [@Washington Post](#): > > The _panel of economists_ that serves as the official timekeeper for the nation’s recessions is considering moving the starting date for the most recent economic decline back to November or December of 2000, a member of the group said today, confirming a report that appeared in The Wall Street Journal. > > “_We_ have discussed it already and there seems to be some inclination to move the date” to some time in the last three months of 2000, said Victor Zarnowitz. _He is a member of the National Bureau of Economic Research’s business cycle dating committee, which determines the widely accepted start and end dates to U.S. recessions._ My two listed points are clearly supported by the linked article, which contains the exact text, letter for letter, of your cite. Furthermore, the organization I linked to is the one mentioned **in your own cite** as the group which sets the recession dates. The National Bureau of Economic Research, which is the organization behind the report I linked to in my post, **is** the “official timekeeper” referred to in your cite. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/91 "2004-05-18T02:55:53Z")
> [@Senggüm](#): > > Just another leftist fabrication: You’ll have to do a little better than this undated quote you give us. While I was able to find some articles from January of this year in which they talked about the NBER considering the date change ([here](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A38826-2004Jan22?language=printer) and [here](http://money.cnn.com/2004/01/22/news/economy/nber/)), a more recent article (March 5) [here](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A31994-2004Mar4¬Found=true) says: > [@](#): > > NBER is examining revised economic statistics to see if the official date should be moved earlier, but spokeswoman Donna Zerwitz said there is “nothing imminent.” At any rate, November or December 2000 are not “at least 6 months prior to the 2000 election”. Mind you, I am not saying that Bush is to blame for the recession. However, he is to blame for mortgaging our future to the tune of a few trillion dollars in order to implement about the most expensive, least effective “stimulus program” in history…which isn’t surprising since it wasn’t originally proposed as a stimulus program but rather as a “give the taxpayers back some of the surplus program” back in the days of a Democratic President when the concern was of excessive government surpluses. It only became a stimulus program when the economy turned sour. ---
**Author:** ![Senggum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@Senggum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senggum)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/92 "2004-05-18T03:02:23Z")
> [@cheddarsnax](#): > > **Senggüm** , you didn’t disprove my point. From my previously linked article, emphasis mine: > > My two listed points are clearly supported by the linked article, which contains the exact text, letter for letter, of your cite. Furthermore, the organization I linked to is the one mentioned **in your own cite** as the group which sets the recession dates. > > The National Bureau of Economic Research, which is the organization behind the report I linked to in my post, **is** the “official timekeeper” referred to in your cite. _“the most recent economic decline back to November or December of 2000”_ … so at a minimum it was December 2000? GW wasn’t there was he? ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/93 "2004-05-18T03:06:47Z")
> [@Senggüm](#): > > _“the most recent economic decline back to November or December of 2000”_ … so at a minimum it was December 2000? GW wasn’t there was he? He was probably somewhere in Alabama. ---
**Author:** ![cheddarsnax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cheddarsnax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cheddarsnax)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/94 "2004-05-18T03:10:59Z")
> [@Senggüm](#): > > so at a minimum it was December 2000 No, it was not. **Senggüm** , you are altering the quote from _your own cite_. Here is the quote you offer: > [@Senggüm](#): > > the most recent economic decline back to November or December of 2000 Prior to the post of yours I quote above, nobody in this thread has truncated that portion of your cite. Here is the actual, full sentance, taken from _your own cite_, emphasis mine, bold section is the selective quote used in your most recent post: > [@Senggüm](#): > > The panel of economists that serves as the official timekeeper for the nation’s recessions is considering moving the starting date for **the most recent economic decline back to November or December of 2000** , a member of the group said today, confirming a report that appeared in The Wall Street Journal. Your selective quoting conveniently omits the key word: considering. Your _own cite_ says that they were merely considering moving the date. Furthermore, I provided you a link to the organization referred to in your cite, which directly contradicts your statement that the start date of March 2001 is a “fabrication”. **jshore** provided another cite which states that there is “nothing imminent”; that is, the recession start date won’t be changing soon. I suggest you take a close look at my post and cites. You are misreading my arguments, and you are misreading my cites; furthermore, you are being intellectually dishonest by selectively quoting your own cite to misrepresent its claims. That is not the way to conduct a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Senggum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@Senggum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senggum)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/95 "2004-05-18T03:14:35Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > He was probably somewhere in Alabama. Great response. So you can fly a delta fighter jet too! Or maybe drive a little boat on a river at best? ---
**Author:** ![Senggum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@Senggum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senggum)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/96 "2004-05-18T03:18:16Z")
> [@cheddarsnax](#): > > … I suggest you take a close look at my post and cites. You are misreading my arguments, and you are misreading my cites; furthermore, you are being intellectually dishonest by selectively quoting your own cite to misrepresent its claims. That is not the way to conduct a debate. Your cites are not **official** to the date, why should I listen? ---
**Author:** ![cheddarsnax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cheddarsnax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cheddarsnax)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/97 "2004-05-18T03:34:17Z")
**Senggüm** , may I ask what an “official” cite would be? ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/98 "2004-05-18T03:38:58Z")
Originally posted by Aldebaran > [@](#): > > \*gum, ga met je poppen spelen. Stay out of my thread with your stupid “cleverness” orr go stalk someone else. \* You’ve said that before:“gum, go play with your dolls” [ga met je poppen spelen] You know, I can’t. There’s a leak in them. 😃 [You speak mighty fine Belgian, btw.] & > [@](#): > > _By the way: het Vlaams Blok never made any anti-Jewish statement. > You have no clue what I talk about._ [Maybe _you_ are the one who hasn’t a clue “what you talk about”](http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw98-9/belgium.html) **While, publicly, the VB [Vlaams Blok / Flemish Block] has been striving to pass itself off as a respectable party, it remains quietly faithful to its ideological heritage. Since 1989 the VB has been the main European ally of the French FN [Front National] , and in 1998 their political ties were intensified. Most of the bloc’s leaders (Philip Claeys, Filip De Man, Johan Demol, Filip Dewinter, Karel Dillen, Roeland Raes, Franck Van Hecke, and others) were involved in the lectures given by the Brussels’ mini-group known as Bruxelles-Identité-Sécurité (BIS), or worked on its propaganda magazine together with members of the French FN national leadership before that party split in December 1998. The BIS was set up in 1994 by the former heads of the Parti des forces nouvelles (PFN), a French-speaking neo-Nazi and revisionist mini-group, which was active in the 1970s and 1980s. It was the PFN which handled the French Holocaust denier Robert Faurisson’s security and lecture arrangements** Originally posted by **Zagadka** > [@](#): > > - > > Why should you (as an American) concern yourself with Iraqi politics? Or Spanish? Or French? Or Russian? Or Chinese? Or, 15 years ago, Soviet?\* Yes. But heaven forbid if we expressed our concerns about those countries politics in the way Aldebaran concerns his, about America. Like the Spanish people [rightfully so] didn’t like the way they were spoken of, I can imagine the American people being sick of Aldebaran’s contemptuous posts about your voting behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/99 "2004-05-18T04:45:51Z")
> [@Senggüm](#): > > I don’t remember the world opining about any US political presidential election. If they did, who gives a crap. You appear to be an unregistered US voter … your opinion is meaningless. As the 747 crashes through your office window… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478/100 "2004-05-18T04:46:10Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Why should you (as an American) concern yourself with Iraqi politics? Or Spanish? Or French? Or Russian? Or Chinese? Or, 15 years ago, Soviet? > . Why? Because Saddam tried to take over Kuwait and destabilize the region. 9/11 was the direct result of OBL’s dislike of US troops on Saudi soil. The UN’s solution was for the US to continue occupying the region indefinitely. IMO, that is not a solution. The UN could have stepped in but it didn’t. Saddam and his regime had to be removed from power. We could have killed him and left but that would have left a power vacuum. Alderbaran has continued to condemn President Bush for removing Saddam but has never offered a solution to Iraq or the network of Islamic terrorists that plaque this planet. Maybe we should have left Saddam to his own designs and let the UN worry about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-you-still-give-gw-bush-your-vote/245478.md?page=6)