# WI A Different Fuehrer **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626 "2011-04-08T03:51:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/21 "2011-04-08T22:46:12Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Why is a fascist dictator automatically better than a communist one? Because they are as history proves, more competent and more inclinced to economically developing their nation (ie see Spain as opposed to any Eastern Bloc nation). > [@Dissonance](#): > > It’s very hard to see Poland letting the German Army in their country voluntarily; what would stop them from not leaving? Poland had been created from Germany and Russia at the end of WWI and there would still be friction over the volksdeutsche population in Poland. Equally, why would Hitler-lite be any more encouraging of nationalist movements in the USSR than the real Hitler? In both cases it would be and was a very cynical encouragement to serve their own ends. The idea that the number of Russians et. al. that would fight against Stalin would be greater than the million who historically did seems a bit fanciful. The Osttruppen weren’t motivated by a greater hatred of communism than of Nazism. They largely weren’t fighting Stalin but motivated by the greatest motivator of all: survival. Of close to 6 million Soviet prisoners taken by the Germans, somewhere between 2.8 and 3.5 million died in captivity through starvation and neglect. Joining the Germans meant not starving to death. Why would they not join? Stalin has murdered millions of their countrymen and the Germans certainly would not create delibrate famines or send millions to gulags. > [@Miller](#): > > By that logic, democracy is also worse than fascism - most proponents of democracy also feel that a democratic system leads to a more ideal society, and that democratic ideals ought to be be spread as widely as possible. > > Meanwhile, global wars of domination started by a coalition of communist nations: 0 > > Global wars of domination started by a coalition of fascist nations: 1 But the total number of Communist wars of domination or “liberation” exceeds or at least equals that of those started by fascist powers. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/22 "2011-04-08T23:56:07Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Because they are as history proves, more competent and more inclinced to economically developing their nation (ie see Spain as opposed to any Eastern Bloc nation). I have an uncle (adopted) who was born in Spain shortly after WWII, and grew up there. He’s just a hair over five feet tall, because Franco’s economy was so fucked he could get enough to eat for most of his life, until he was taken in by my dad’s family. And this wasn’t out in the hinterlands. He grew up in Madrid. Another family friend made a small fortune as a smuggler while working as an airline steward during the same time period. I’m no economist, but it strikes me that a robust black market is generally a side-effect of a sickly legitimate economy. And, of course, there’s the unavoidable fact that the actions of Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo led directly to the utter ruination of their respective nations. > [@](#): > > Why would they not join? Stalin has murdered millions of their countrymen and the Germans certainly would not create delibrate famines or send millions to gulags. Since the real Germans did, in fact, do just that sort of thing to the real Poles, why do you expect your hypothetical Poles to trust your hypothetical Germans? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/23 "2011-04-08T23:57:37Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > and the Germans certainly would not create delibrate famines or send millions to gulags. :rolleyes: _Excuse_ me? They sent millions to their deaths in concentration camps! It’s called the Holocaust, very famous, you may have heard of it. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/24 "2011-04-09T00:15:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I have an uncle (adopted) who was born in Spain shortly after WWII, and grew up there. He’s just a hair over five feet tall, because Franco’s economy was so fucked he could get enough to eat for most of his life, until he was taken in by my dad’s family. And this wasn’t out in the hinterlands. He grew up in Madrid. > > Another family friend made a small fortune as a smuggler while working as an airline steward during the same time period. I’m no economist, but it strikes me that a robust black market is generally a side-effect of a sickly legitimate economy. > > And, of course, there’s the unavoidable fact that the actions of Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo led directly to the utter ruination of their respective nations. If its in the '50s or so, Spain wouldn’t have fully recovered from the Civil War especially since it was ostracized by much of the West until the mid '50s. > [@](#): > > Since the real Germans did, in fact, do just that sort of thing to the real Poles, why do you expect your hypothetical Poles to trust your hypothetical Germans? Again quite a few things may go differently. Its been said on one thread, that if Hitler hadn’t went east, Stalin would have gone west. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: _Excuse_ me? They sent millions to their deaths in concentration camps! It’s called the Holocaust, very famous, you may have heard of it. We are discussing a hypothetical non-Nazi and thus non-genocidal Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/25 "2011-04-09T00:24:43Z")
So it’s okay to oppress and murder your citizens as long as the economy is rolling along? :dubious: Sounds like the old, “he made the trains run on time…” ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/26 "2011-04-09T00:31:05Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So it’s okay to oppress and murder your citizens as long as the economy is rolling along? :dubious: > > Sounds like the old, “he made the trains run on time…” Certainly not. I’m just answering your question on whether fascists are better than commies. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/27 "2011-04-09T00:36:52Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > We are discussing a hypothetical non-Nazi and thus non-genocidal Germany. The Nazis didn’t invent genocide. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/28 "2011-04-09T01:37:51Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > What if instead of Hitler and the Nazi Party, a nationalist and anticommunist but not a anti-Semite had become the leader of Germany, forming some sort of a new German Empire? Could the world have been a better place? > > Because here’s the way I see it: Such a dictator would largely work on trying to reverse Versailles and contain the Communists. However, assuming he has any strategic sense, he would realize the Communist threat needs to be contained. As a result he would have formed a grand anti-Communist alliance including countries like Poland and other former members of France’s Little Entente. With less ideological anti-Slavic racism, the dictator would certainly have encouraged anti-Communist and nationalist movements within the USSR as he launched his own Barabossa. Even in our own world, almost a million Russians fought against Stalin-in this world where the Germans are far less brutal the numbers would be enormously larger. Thus the Soviet threat would be crushed in the onset and thus avert the Cold War. Would the world have been a better place if Hilter weren’t an anti-Semite? Probably not for Catholics, homosexuals, and Romani. Why do you assume Germans would have been far less brutal to Russians if Hilter were not an anti-Semite? Why do you assume anti-communism is the greatest good? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/29 "2011-04-09T01:52:02Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Because they are as history proves, more competent and more inclinced to economically developing their nation (ie see Spain as opposed to any Eastern Bloc nation). As history proves, Spain’s economic recovery occurred after Franco died, and his intended dictatorial heir Juan Carlos II allowed the Socialists to take power following a democratic election. Where do you get the idea that the West ostracized Franco? He was fervently anti-communist, and any ostracism that occurred was the other way around, i.e. Franco’s resistance of democratic ideals. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/30 "2011-04-09T02:41:19Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Why would they not join? Stalin has murdered millions of their countrymen and the Germans certainly would not create delibrate famines or send millions to gulags. Why would they join? Even using starvation as a motivator the historical Germans ‘recruited’ a million. For your edification: [Nazi crimes against Soviet POWs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_Soviet_POWs). As for anti-communist, it hard to beat the [Commissar Order](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissar_Order). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/31 "2011-04-09T02:54:30Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Certainly not. I’m just answering your question on whether fascists are better than commies. I hear ya. I mean, the Nazis crushed the very spirit of their own people, made everyone live in utter dread of the all powerful Gestapo, ruled by the schlag, nationalized pretty much every industry, made extensive use of slave labour, and oh yes, declared war on the world… but at least they weren’t _commies_. Do you realize it’s this very reasoning that led Hitler to power, and the rest of Europe to nod along ? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/32 "2011-04-09T03:38:38Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > However, assuming he has any strategic sense, he would realize the Communist threat needs to be contained. What Communist threat? The official Soviet foreign policy position under Stalin was “Socialism in one country”. If you suggested trying to expand communism, you were a Trotskyite. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/33 "2011-04-09T04:17:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The Nazis didn’t invent genocide. > [@j66](#): > > Would the world have been a better place if Hilter weren’t an anti-Semite? Probably not for Catholics, homosexuals, and Romani. My general point is that Hitler and Nazis were bigoted, totalitarian fanatics and a soberer and saner German regimes wouldn’t get particularly worked up over gypsies either. And why the hell would any German regime persecute Catholics-they made up a third of the population (yes Hitler persecuted certain members of the Catholic clergy but only if they opposed his polices)? > [@](#): > > Why do you assume Germans would have been far less brutal to Russians if Hilter were not an anti-Semite? Because Hitler’s fanatical racist ideology included anti-Slavism along with anti-Semitism. A saner man would see the political benefits of supporting the anti-Communist Russians. > [@](#): > > Why do you assume anti-communism is the greatest good? [/QUOTE] Because communism of all the ideologies has the highest death toll. > [@Frank](#): > > As history proves, Spain’s economic recovery occurred after Franco died, and his intended dictatorial heir Juan Carlos II allowed the Socialists to take power following a democratic election. > > Where do you get the idea that the West ostracized Franco? He was fervently anti-communist, and any ostracism that occurred was the other way around, i.e. Franco’s resistance of democratic ideals. Basically Franco was not allowed to join the UN and not given Marshall Aid among other things. > [@Dissonance](#): > > Why would they join? Even using starvation as a motivator the historical Germans ‘recruited’ a million. For your edification: [Nazi crimes against Soviet POWs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_Soviet_POWs). As for anti-communist, it hard to beat the [Commissar Order](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissar_Order). > [@Kobal2](#): > > I hear ya. I mean, the Nazis crushed the very spirit of their own people, made everyone live in utter dread of the all powerful Gestapo, ruled by the schlag, nationalized pretty much every industry, made extensive use of slave labour, and oh yes, declared war on the world… but at least they weren’t _commies_. > > Do you realize it’s this very reasoning that led Hitler to power, and the rest of Europe to nod along ? This is not the same as Nazi Germany! Thus they would not commit the above-mentioned war crimes. Nazism’s brutality was not part of the German cultural continuity. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What Communist threat? The official Soviet foreign policy position under Stalin was “Socialism in one country”. If you suggested trying to expand communism, you were a Trotskyite. Ie Finland. Why is everybody acting as if this Germany would be as nasty as Germany although that was the exact opposite of my OP? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/34 "2011-04-09T04:33:33Z")
You’re talking of a fascist dictatorship. Note how I specifically omitted the bigoted/antisemite/racist/eugenic ideas that were unique to the Nazis. But trampling every last freedom, nationalizing “essential” businesses and ruling with a bludgeon are what fascism and dictatorships _are_. There are no benevolent dictators, or happy dovey Hello Kitty fascists. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/35 "2011-04-09T04:55:35Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You’re talking of a fascist dictatorship. Note how I specifically omitted the bigoted/antisemite/racist/eugenic ideas that were unique to the Nazis. But trampling every last freedom, nationalizing “essential” businesses and ruling with a bludgeon are what fascism and dictatorships _are_. There are no benevolent dictators, or happy dovey Hello Kitty fascists. Mass enslavement wasn’t part of other fascist dictatorships and Nazi Germany didn’t so much crush the German people’s spirit as grant them what they wished. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/36 "2011-04-09T05:00:40Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Because they are as history proves, more competent and more inclinced to economically developing their nation (ie see Spain as opposed to any Eastern Bloc nation). :rolleyes: You just used Spain as an example of relative economic success. Franco’s Spain, no less. I guess you think anything is better than the Warsaw Pact economies, but at this point you’re just trumpeting your anti-Marxist bias by assuming that Franco was better. > [@](#): > > Why would they not join? Stalin has murdered millions of their countrymen and the Germans certainly would not create delibrate famines or send millions to gulags. Except they did, in our timeline. OK, _stalags._ But yeah, stealing the food supply of the conquered has a long history. The English did it to the Irish, after all. > [@](#): > > But the total number of Communist wars of domination or “liberation” exceeds or at least equals that of those started by fascist powers. Not per year, it doesn’t. The Commies only have so “many” wars because their régime survived for so long. You know why the Nazis didn’t last so long? Because they invaded everybody! At once! The World War was in effect dozens of wars at once! The Allies opposed Hitler not because he was a racist, certainly not because he was an anti-Semite, but because he was a warmonger. If he’d stayed only pointing east, would the West have left him alone? Maybe. Would he have won? I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/37 "2011-04-09T05:02:54Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Because communism of all the ideologies has the highest death toll. Only because Nazism thankfully came to a quick death. Given time, they’d have killed far more than communism has. For only being in power for 12 years they built up quite a record of mass murders. They only _ **began** _ the ‘small plan’ of [Generalplan Ost](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost) during WW2, the ‘large plan’ of exterminating or exiling to Siberia another 45 million was to occur post-war had they won. > [@](#): > > This is not the same as Nazi Germany! Thus they would not commit the above-mentioned war crimes. Nazism’s brutality was not part of the German cultural continuity. > > Why is everybody acting as if this Germany would be as nasty as Germany although that was the exact opposite of my OP? [Drang nach Osten](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drang_nach_Osten) long predates the Nazis. Why do you imagine a Germany so virulently anti-communist as to still invade the USSR (having to invade Poland first to get there mind you) wouldn’t commit ‘excesses’ like the Commissar Order? What would realistically be in it for Germany to carve out an independent Ukraine, Armenia, Kazakhstan, etc from the corpse of a de-communized USSR? If there is nothing in it for them, why would they do it? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/38 "2011-04-09T05:10:24Z")
I suppose you could find a _Deutscher_ “nationalist” worthy of the name in the early 20th Century that would resist race consciousness & expansionist _Geopolitik_, & take a more pragmatic view. Because we aren’t all convinced we’re Nietzschean paladins. But nationalist != anti-communist crusader! And pragmatic nationalist even less so! ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/39 "2011-04-09T05:22:25Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > :rolleyes: You just used Spain as an example of relative economic success. Franco’s Spain, no less. I guess you think anything is better than the Warsaw Pact economies, but at this point you’re just trumpeting your anti-Marxist bias by assuming that Franco was better.Except they did, in our timeline. OK, _stalags._ But yeah, stealing the food supply of the conquered has a long history. The English did it to the Irish, after all.Not per year, it doesn’t. The Commies only have so “many” wars because their régime survived for so long. You know why the Nazis didn’t last so long? Because they invaded everybody! At once! The World War was in effect dozens of wars at once! > > The Allies opposed Hitler not because he was a racist, certainly not because he was an anti-Semite, but because he was a warmonger. If he’d stayed only pointing east, would the West have left him alone? Maybe. Would he have won? I don’t think so. > [@Dissonance](#): > > Only because Nazism thankfully came to a quick death. Given time, they’d have killed far more than communism has. For only being in power for 12 years they built up quite a record of mass murders. They only _ **began** _ the ‘small plan’ of [Generalplan Ost](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost) during WW2, the ‘large plan’ of exterminating or exiling to Siberia another 45 million was to occur post-war had they won. And Nazism itself (as opposed to fascism) isn’t particularly exportable. > [@](#): > > [Drang nach Osten](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drang_nach_Osten) long predates the Nazis. Why do you imagine a Germany so virulently anti-communist as to still invade the USSR (having to invade Poland first to get there mind you) wouldn’t commit ‘excesses’ like the Commissar Order? What would realistically be in it for Germany to carve out an independent Ukraine, Armenia, Kazakhstan, etc from the corpse of a de-communized USSR? If there is nothing in it for them, why would they do it? [/QUOTE] Actually in World War I, the Germans did plan to carve out Poland, Ukraine, White Russia, etc. as puppet states to weaken Russia. The same principle would apply here. Plust the Commisarr order was opposed by most of the German officers in the East such as von Manstein. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626/40 "2011-04-09T05:44:42Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Why is everybody acting as if this Germany would be as nasty as Germany although that was the exact opposite of my OP? Because in your hypothetical, they’re still fucking fascists! There are no benevolent fascist regimes. If you want to imagine a fairyland where there are well-meaning, kind hearted fascists, why not go ahead and imagine one where Communism is a functional road to a true utopian society? It’s every bit as far-fetched. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wi-a-different-fuehrer/577626.md?page=3)