# Widespread Secret Societies exist ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171 "2003-08-23T16:21:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/21 "2003-08-23T22:04:02Z")
I’m a Mason. Don’t mess with me or I’ll send The Guys after you. Seriously, someone already said it: The Masons are NOT a secret society. We don’t conceal our meeting places, we don’t meet in secret and we don’t conceal our membership. If we are bent on world domination, no one has sent me the memo and since we’ve been around for a long time, we don’t seem to be making much headway at the task. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/22 "2003-08-23T22:06:33Z")
The loony fringe, Captain, likes to use “secret society” for “some outfit that’s all nefarious and hiding both itself and its demonic influence on the government from public view.” ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/23 "2003-08-24T02:18:26Z")
This David Icke thing is sinister… so I checked in Amazon to see if the books are authentic… they are ! Worse… some people acutally posted positive reviews of the books \>:) Talk about ignorance and/or paranoia ! Why would the Illuminati kill Princess Diana ?! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/24 "2003-08-24T03:00:52Z")
Apos: How about a reputable site for a cite instead of that raving load of garbage? ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/25 "2003-08-24T04:08:06Z")
Because the Masons value their _privacy_ (not _secrecy_their halls have been used as headquarters for (would-be) revolutionaries, especially in the Middle East. The Masons, of course, aren’t inherently revolutionary or bent on conquest. They’ve been means to that end on some occasions, however. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/26 "2003-08-24T04:22:08Z")
I nominate Opus Dei. They are a public org in a sense, but seems they tend to attract intelligence agents (CIA traitor Aldrich Ames was a member) from various countries. I’m not saying that Opus Dei as a whole is a secret society, but it seems very plausible that some subgroup working within Opus Dei might be pretty durned formidable. Some former Opus Dei members like the org to a cult. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/27 "2003-08-24T04:24:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Apos: How about a reputable site for a cite instead of that raving load of garbage? The article is a real article from the real Boston Globe, the main newspaper in Boston and the wider Mass area. I found it amusing that it was posted on an anti-freemason site, because it seems to work against the nonsense they are spewing, but the site that is hosting it makes little difference to its accuracy. Your odd aggresiveness here is a little confusing to me. What are you on about here? I said that the Masons used to be much more secretive about who they were and even their own existence, but in recent times have decided that this hurts their ability to find new members. Given what I’ve said, I’ve tried considering both that you might have some beef with Masons, or that you think you are defending Masons, but I’m not sure in either case I can make sense of your behavior, given how innocuous the facts I am stating are. Especially, if you think you are defending Masons against some percieved slight, given the fact that you should have some idea, at least, of me and my general candor (for instance, that any references to Chick by me are purely at the expense of Chick, not his targets) and the fact that I don’t have anything against Masons or secret societies (being a member of one myself). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/28 "2003-08-24T20:54:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*The loony fringe, Captain, likes to use “secret society” for “some outfit that’s all nefarious and hiding both itself and its demonic influence on the government from public view.” \*\* Well, sure, secret societies tend to get a bad reputation, and always have, regardless of their actual harmfulness or harmlessness. From mystery religions, to early Christianity, to Masonry, to Mormonism, to Skull and Bones, there’s this attitude “If you’re not doing anything bad, why won’t you tell us?” People don’t like secrets kept from them. But regardless of what reputation you give it, a secret society is just any group that reserves certain knowledge to it’s initiates or those who have reached a certain level in the group. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/29 "2003-08-25T10:45:53Z")
**Captain Amazing,** do you or your family have any secrets they choose not to reveal to the world at large? Does this make you a member of a secret society? Did you belong to a fraternity in college? Didn’t that fraternity have “secrets?” Mine did, but it wasn’t a “Secret Society.” There is a fundamental difference between a “Secret Society” and a society that has secrets. There are any number of books to be found in most sizeable public libraries that reveal the secrets of Masonry. I don’t doubt that a little searching on the internet would result in sources that do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/30 "2003-08-25T13:53:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LouisB \* > \*\ ***Captain Amazing,** do you or your family have any secrets they choose not to reveal to the world at large? Does this make you a member of a secret society? Did you belong to a fraternity in college? Didn’t that fraternity have “secrets?” Mine did, but it wasn’t a “Secret Society.” \*\* I’d argue that under the definition I put out, if your fraternity had rituals that were closed, it was a secret society. A family probably wouldn’t be, because, first, while Uncle Ira’s alcoholism might be a secret, it wouldn’t fit in to the category of a ritual or ceremony closed to outsiders. Also, families aren’t voluntary associations, which seems to be part of the whole “society” thing. Also, remember, when I’m using the term “secret society”, I’m not using it in a derogatory manner. There’s nothing wrong with membership in one. But, I’m wondering, how would you define a secret society, and what organizations would be secret societies under your definition? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/31 "2003-08-25T15:59:38Z")
i would say that most secret societies are not formal in nature, but conspiratorial groups DO exist – we have proof of their existence. Frex, the Committee to Re-Elect the Presidency was ostensibly a straightforward group, but as we all know they did things like break into Democratic campaign headquarters. Their leaders kept “enemies” lists. While CREEP wasn’t a secret society, some of their members were DEFINITELY conspirators. That’s the way I imagine it works in most orgs. There’s a public group that does good works and wants to be loved by everybody, and an inner cabal that does the dirty work. The public group reaps the benefit of the good works, and the dirty deeds, since it never formally recognizes its dirty work crew. I think most conspiracies fall under the aegis of “needlessly complicated” but there’s no use in pretending they don’t exist when history is so full of conspiracies that have failed, and conspiracies that have succeeded. A “secret” society with widespread membership makes very little sense if all those members are part of the dirty work crew. SOMEBODY will talk probably a LOT of somebodies. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/32 "2003-08-25T18:59:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rashak Mani \* > \*\*This David Icke thing is sinister… so I checked in Amazon to see if the books are authentic… they are ! Worse… some people acutally posted positive reviews of the books \>:) Talk about ignorance and/or paranoia ! Why would the Illuminati kill Princess Diana ?! \*\* Ritual sacrifice to the Moon Goddess, Diana. I don’t have room to explain it here, i just read it yesterday in the book Biggest Secret. 13th pillar, etc. I happen to think David Icke is fighting ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/33 "2003-08-25T19:15:37Z")
There’s a huge difference between fighting ignorance (as Cecil does) and pandering to it (as Icke does). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/34 "2003-08-25T19:58:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\* > I happen to think David Icke is fighting ignorance. \*\* I have no doubt Icke is sincere, but some of his theories, such as the one that the royal families of Europe and the Presidents and Vice-Presidents of the US are really disguised evil, subterranian, intelligent, man eating lizard men are kind of far fetched. (Ok, I can believe it of Al Gore, but that’s it) ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/35 "2003-08-25T21:46:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*There’s a huge difference between fighting ignorance (as Cecil does) and pandering to it (as Icke does). \*\* True… But I’ll bet David Icke makes more money than Cecil. Conspiracy theory is an industry. **Splanky** : Not sure what you mean by ‘Thanks’? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/36 "2003-08-25T23:42:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*I have no doubt Icke is sincere, but some of his theories, such as the one that the royal families of Europe and the Presidents and Vice-Presidents of the US are really disguised evil, subterranian, intelligent, man eating lizard men are kind of far fetched. (Ok, I can believe it of Al Gore, but that’s it) \*\* I do NOT think people can shift into reptiles, DNA problems with that. I DO, however, believe that very rich families, ala the Rockefellers do control the leaders of countries, the currency, etc. to benefit themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/37 "2003-08-25T23:57:37Z")
That’s not control, it’s persuasion. Those folks are not automotons. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/38 "2003-08-26T00:04:52Z")
> [@](#): > > But, I’m wondering, how would you define a secret society, and what organizations would be secret societies under your definition? If they were secret societies, I wouldn’t know their names unless I were a member. And, if I were a member of a secret society, I would never admit to it. A secret society is one which operates _sub rosa_. Such a society and its membership remain unknown to the general public. If it were otherwise, as is the case of the Masonic Fraternity, it wouldn’t be a secret society. The Masonic rituals are not so much closed as restricted to members. Besides, as I said, there are plenty of books and I don’t doubt there are websites wherein the secrets of Masonry are revealed–so if Masonry was ever a “secret” society, its secrets have been blown. I agree that my example of a family wasn’t well thought out, and I didn’t mean any offense by it. And, I didn’t think you were being derogatory concerning membership in a society–I just don’t think of the Masons as being a secret society. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/39 "2003-08-26T00:25:52Z")
And here’s something else, LouisB: the Masons don’t think of themselves as one either! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171/40 "2003-08-26T03:00:21Z")
That’s just a more restrictive definition of secret society than I think is commonly used. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widespread-secret-societies-exist/197171.md?page=3)