# Widow's beloved mother-in-law asks her to disregard hubby's body-disposal wishes. Should she? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 12, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904 "2010-10-12T18:51:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chopper9760](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Chopper9760](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chopper9760)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/21 "2010-10-12T19:43:30Z")
Jack’s wishes should be followed, I’m surprised anyone would think otherwise. If you make a promise to someone it doesn’t become null and void just because that person will never find out that you broke your oath. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/22 "2010-10-12T19:50:28Z")
> [@Chopper9760](#): > > Jack’s wishes should be followed, I’m surprised anyone would think otherwise. > > If you make a promise to someone it doesn’t become null and void just because that person will never find out that you broke your oath. Null and void, no, of course not. All else being equal, I would say one should honor any promise made to Jack. But all else _isn’t_ equal. In both the OP’s hypo and mine, honoring the promise made to the dead man would inflict real harm on the living - we need to balance those harms somehow. Given that Jack will never again enjoy consciousness, let alone the capacity to feel betrayal, it seems that the moral harm of violating one’s word should be weighed very lightly. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/23 "2010-10-12T19:58:56Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Dead men can’t be harmed by betrayal. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Dead men are difficult to betray. The betrayal wouldn’t be of the _dead_ man, it would be of the living man who made the request and received the promise. The fact that the living man is no longer _present_ isn’t relevant. > [@Chopper9760](#): > > If you make a promise to someone it doesn’t become null and void just because that person will never find out that you broke your oath. Exactly. Promises are sanctified in the moment of their making. The fact that the recipient _later_ dies (or disappears in a faraway land, or whatever) doesn’t change anything. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/24 "2010-10-12T20:18:15Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Where do you get the ball-kicking thing from? You can’t imagine that a mother grieiving the loss of her son, busying herself in an attempt to be helpful to his family and control her ownself, might suddenly be overwhelmed with emotion? > > People do funny things when they’re grieving. When my mother died, I went into overdrive–cooking repeated meals for everybody in my family, cleaning every single item in my house and my dad’s, coordinating getting people in town for the funeral, and so forth, without shedding a tear. But when my father tried to thank me for everything I was doing I burst into tears, because he broke the momemtum I was using to keep myself under control. > > He wasn’t kicking me in the balls, though. It was unavoidable. Maybe it’s just me but if I were Jack and I could see what was going on (two big IFs) then Grace might as well have kicked my corpse in the balls. Hannah and I made a plan for what I wanted done with my body. Grace has waited until the 12th hour to wedge her will in between Jack and Hannah (why?) and is forcing a painful choice on the widow at a time when she should be allowed to just follow the plan. I would expect my mom to grieve. I would also expect her to not take my funeral as an opportunity to countermand the choices I’ve made. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/25 "2010-10-12T20:19:43Z")
Would those who say Hannah should violate her word say the same thing if Jack’s mom were atheist and ooked out by the idea of burial but Jack was a Christian and wanted to be buried in the church cemetery? My husband was an atheist. He wanted to be cremated and scattered after any usable organs were taken. I made him that promise because I respected his choice. If I had had any intention of not living up to the promise, I wouldn’t have made it and if his decision had been one I couldn’t live with then the promise would have been something I couldn’t live with either. If I violate a promise I made, I am harming myself. I am showing myself _to myself_ as a person who cannot be trusted. If my actions or pleading caused someone else to violate a promise, I would consider my behavior unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/26 "2010-10-12T20:21:07Z")
Bear in mind that if Jack is wrong and there _is_ an afterlife, she will have directly betrayed him if she gives in to the mother-in-law. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/27 "2010-10-12T20:36:00Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m not sure what the antecdent of the bolded pronoun is. Is it that Jack wished to be cremated & scattered, or that Hannah agreed to it? It is, after all, possible for the first to be true without the second being the case. It’s both. Jack made his final wishes for the disposal of his body clear, and Hannah agreed to carry them out. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/28 "2010-10-12T20:39:27Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Would those who say Hannah should violate her word say the same thing if Jack’s mom were atheist and ooked out by the idea of burial but Jack was a Christian and wanted to be buried in the church cemetery? Yes, I would. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/29 "2010-10-12T20:41:35Z")
Incidentally, one of the factors for me in picking option #3 is that based on the description of Grace I’m sure that this is not a power play or attention-getting maneuver. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/30 "2010-10-12T20:42:09Z")
Like those above have said, cremating Jack would really hurt Grace’s feelings, but Jack himself is beyond being hurt. As Penn Jillette said, grieve in the way that makes you happy. I certainly hope that my loved ones will carry out my wishes about my final arrangements (donate body to science, cremate, maybe a small plaque in a columbarium somewhere), but it’s up to them. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/31 "2010-10-12T20:45:03Z")
I’d say this calls for a King Soloman type solution. Bisect him along an agreed upon axis. Inter one half and toss the other on the barbie. Everyone’s happy. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/32 "2010-10-12T20:52:10Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Would those who say Hannah should violate her word say the same thing if Jack’s mom were atheist and ooked out by the idea of burial but Jack was a Christian and wanted to be buried in the church cemetery? To me, there’s a qualitative difference between being “ooked out” by a church service and being devastated that your dead son is going to be burned to ashes and thrown to the wind, instead of being interred in the family crypt. While Jack is dead, if I’m going to break a promise, I need more than an ook to convince me. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/33 "2010-10-12T21:09:18Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > > [@jsgoddess](#): > > > > Would those who say Hannah should violate her word say the same thing if Jack’s mom were atheist and ooked out by the idea of burial but Jack was a Christian and wanted to be buried in the church cemetery? > > To me, there’s a qualitative difference between being “ooked out” by a church service and being devastated that your dead son is going to be burned to ashes and thrown to the wind, instead of being interred in the family crypt. > > While Jack is dead, if I’m going to break a promise, I need more than an ook to convince me. I’m not going to break the promise, no matter what devastation and/or ook or manipulation there was. If Grace wanted Jack to have made a different decision, she should have brought that up with Jack before he died not with Hannah afterward. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/34 "2010-10-12T21:15:23Z")
Would it be too much to assume that Jack had friends and family that knew he was an atheist and/or knew what his last wish was? If so, what does she tell them at the funeral and burial service? ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/35 "2010-10-12T21:16:10Z")
Funerals and burials are for the living and the health department. The dead don’t care any more. Hannah has to make her decision on what she can live with. Personally, I’d give my mother-in-law peace. My duty to the living outweighs my duty to the dead. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/36 "2010-10-12T21:16:47Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > > [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > > > Dead men can’t be harmed by betrayal. > > The betrayal wouldn’t be of the _dead_ man, it would be of the living man who made the request and received the promise. The fact that the living man is no longer _present_ isn’t relevant. > > > [@Chopper9760](#): > > > > If you make a promise to someone it doesn’t become null and void just because that person will never find out that you broke your oath. > > Exactly. Promises are sanctified in the moment of their making. The fact that the recipient _later_ dies (or disappears in a faraway land, or whatever) doesn’t change anything. Sanctified by whom, exactly? Jesus? Aslan? The Valar? > [@jsgoddess](#): > > Would those who say Hannah should violate her word say the same thing if Jack’s mom were atheist and ooked out by the idea of burial but Jack was a Christian and wanted to be buried in the church cemetery? > > My husband was an atheist. He wanted to be cremated and scattered after any usable organs were taken. I made him that promise because I respected his choice. If I had had any intention of not living up to the promise, I wouldn’t have made it and if his decision had been one I couldn’t live with then the promise would have been something I couldn’t live with either. If I violate a promise I made, I am harming myself. I am showing myself _to myself_ as a person who cannot be trusted. > > If my actions or pleading caused someone else to violate a promise, I would consider my behavior unacceptable. **jsgoddess** , I am reading this to mean that, in your view, promises are always inviolate–that keeping one’s word is more important than any other virtue. Is that what you mean? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Bear in mind that if Jack is wrong and there _is_ an afterlife, she will have directly betrayed him if she gives in to the mother-in-law. If my grandmother had wheels, she’d be a wagon. Or perhaps a Model T. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/37 "2010-10-12T21:56:09Z")
Jack’s failure in this was to not put his wishes in his last will and testament to be followed by the trustess of his estate. Instead, he is relying upon the verbal promise of his wife. Without such legal binding, Jack left open his final resting place to the whims and fancies of those left behind. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/38 "2010-10-12T21:59:27Z")
> [@Wilbo523](#): > > Jack’s failure in this was to not put his wishes in his last will and testament to be followed by the trustess of his estate. Instead, he is relying upon the verbal promise of his wife. Without such legal binding, Jack left open his final resting place to the whims and fancies of those left behind. So what? The story isn’t about Jack. Jack’s dead. The thread isn’t about _how can Jack best see that his wishes are carried out after his death_. I also think it unlikely that putting the requirement that he be cremated in his will would do much good if his wife disagreed. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/39 "2010-10-12T22:16:46Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@spark240](#): > > > > Promises are sanctified in the moment of their making. > > Sanctified by whom, exactly? Jesus? Aslan? The Valar? By the respect on the one hand (of promise-maker for recipient), the trust on the other, and the honor of both. Breaking the promise disgraces both parties. ---
**Author:** ![gwendee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@gwendee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gwendee)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904/40 "2010-10-12T22:17:17Z")
My answer depends slightly on how Jack made his wishes known. We know from the OP that Jack has been ill and so can imagine that there might have been a conversation. If it was: Her: When the time comes, what do you want to happen to your body? Him: Huh? I dunno. Her: Well, would you rather be buried or cremated. Him: Cremated, I guess. Her: And then what? Take 'em to the lake maybe? I don’t know. Do what you think is best I would be inclined that letting Grace have a sense of peace about it was what I think is best. If it was more: Her: When the time comes, what do you want to happen to your body? Him: On January 30, the anniversary of the Beatles’ rooftop concert you have to drive to the bluffs overlooking the river and walk out to the edge at precisely noon, accompanied by a lone bagpiper playing side one of Rubber Soul scatter my ashes for escatly 90 seconds, mo more, no less. then she’d have to do what he asked. My own husband has no particular care for his body. I think where it ends up might matter to his parents. If it does I will defer to their wishes. He has told me for the last 20 years, “When I die harvest everything.” I know his parents are aware of his wish to be a donor. If they tried to hinder that I would push back. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/widows-beloved-mother-in-law-asks-her-to-disregard-hubbys-body-disposal-wishes-should-she/556904.md?page=3)