# Wierdness in old children's books **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 7, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488 "2008-03-07T19:19:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/81 "2008-03-09T21:20:35Z")
[QUOTE=phungi] Not as old as I thought, but the [Butter Battle Book](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Butter_Battle_Book) from Dr. Seuss definitely qualifies for this thread: [/QUOTE] Dr. Seuss had some casual racism in some of his books as well, at least before the more progressive post-WWII era: _If I Ran The Zoo_ features a visit to Zomba-ma-Tant “with helpers who all wear their eyes in a slant,” and _And To Think That I Saw It On Mulberry Street_ depicted, among other sights, a yellow-skinned, pigtailed “Chinaman who eats with sticks.” (In later printings, the “Chinaman” became a “Chinese man,” and then a “Chinese boy” with the pigtail and yellow hue removed.) The original _Charlie and the Chocolate Factory_ explained that the Oompa-Loompas were originally African tribesmen whom Willy Wonka captured to work in his factory. After a complaint from author Eleanor Campbell published in the children’s literacy magazine _The Horn Book_, Dahl changed the Oompa-Loompa’s origin- rather than Africa, they were captured from the mythical Loompaland. (The follow-up, _Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator_, features a few “me so solly” depictions of Chinese speak which remain in the book to this day, in a scene where the American President attempts to reach the Chinese Premier, but fails- there are so many Wings and Wongs that you’re likely to wing the wong number.) ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/82 "2008-03-09T21:23:20Z")
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] CC writes: \> And here in the U.S. there is growing antipathy toward having children learn \> more than one language. Cite? A citation in this case would be a survey showing that there has been a change in the attitude towards children learning foreign languages. Individual statements about this issue aren’t sufficient. [/QUOTE] Wendell: I’ll spell it out for ya. C - A - F - E - S - O - C - I - E - T - Y. Although I agree that many segments of U.S. society seem to be showing the opposite trend to the one asserted. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/83 "2008-03-09T21:35:16Z")
Ok, some cites. Google lists over 32,000,000 for “English only schools,” but here are three you can look at to see if you can sense the sentiment I referred to: [http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jwcrawford/RS-az.htm](http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jwcrawford/RS-az.htm) > **[English-only movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-only_movement)** > > The English-only movement, also known as the Official English movement, is a political movement that advocates for the use of only the English language in official United States government operations through the establishment of English as the only official language in the United States. The United States has never had a legal policy proclaiming an official national language. However, at some times and places, there have been various moves to promote or require the use of English, such as in N... [http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0228ellprimer0228.html](http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0228ellprimer0228.html) xo, C. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/84 "2008-03-09T21:57:51Z")
[QUOTE=MGibson] I didn’t find it to be all that disturbing. I do find that the ending of _Peter and Wendy_ was a lot sadder than the Disney production. It was also a bit more violent than other versions of the story I grew accustomed to. The Lost Boys slaughtered all but two of the pirates. _Treasure Island_ might not be considered weird but it has levels of violence that might be unacceptable to todays audience. When the mutineers led by Silver attacked the stockade on the island Jim Hawkins, who might have been 12 or 13, went out armed with a cutlass with the intent of killing someone. Later he has occasion to utter my favorite phrase from the book. So we’ve got Jim Hawkins wielding two guns John Woo style threating to blow some dudes brains out, and they he kills Mr. Hands. It doesn’t sound all that unusual but it’s only strange because this is a children’s book featuring serious violence, and gun violence at that, done by a pre-teen/teen. Marc [/QUOTE] Shrug. When I was a pre-teen, I routinely played war, cowboys and Indians and various other make-believe games that involved the idea of shooting people and blowing shit up. Back in the day, we had this idea that it wasn’t the pretending you did that made you violent, it was the morality with which you were instilled in real life. Of course, we were unenlightened then, which is why now, with all the violence and anything objectionable taken out of childrens’ entertainment, there is no problem whatsoever with violence among the nation’s youth… ---
**Author:** ![AveDementia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@AveDementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AveDementia)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/85 "2008-03-09T22:58:09Z")
Perhaps it’s true that the Little Match Girl’s story is supposed to be a Christian story about hope, but that’s a demented kind of setup to demonstrate hope, and Hans Christian Anderson’s story about the little girl with [The Red Shoes](http://www.classicreader.com/read.php/bookid.109/sec.18/) is even worse. To summarize- the little girl commits the sin of wearing beautiful red dancing shoes to church (instead of plain black shoes) which distracts the church people, and for that she is cursed by an angel of God to dance herself to death. Fortunately (or not depending on how you look at it) she is able to persuade a executioner to cut off her feet with his ax. Then she wants to go to church and can’t manage it, so finally the same angel magically transports her there and she dies in the sunlit pew, happy as can be. It made me sick to my stomach when I first read it as a child, and it still sickens me. ---
**Author:** ![Hogwash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e57/32.png) [@Hogwash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogwash)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/86 "2008-03-09T23:16:28Z")
A couple of weeks after I started as a bookseller the higher ups gave orders to move [Tintin in the Congo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tintin_in_the_Congo) from the Children’s section into Graphic Novels due to racial controversy (the Wikipedia page explains it in more detail). ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/87 "2008-03-10T00:29:57Z")
“The Giving Tree” by Shel Silverstein disturbed me as a kid and disturbs me now. Great story. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/88 "2008-03-10T01:53:54Z")
[QUOTE=Sir Prize] “The Giving Tree” by Shel Silverstein disturbed me as a kid and disturbs me now. Great story. [/QUOTE] [Speaking of which …](http://pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF232-The_Unforgiving_Tree.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/89 "2008-03-10T02:19:52Z")
JKellyMap writes: \> Wendell: I’ll spell it out for ya. C - A - F - E - S - O - C - I - E - T - Y. Cite? Where does it say that we can make up anything we feel like in Cafe Society? We’re fighting ignorance at the SDMB, and that includes every forum. CC writes: \> Ok, some cites. This still isn’t a very good cite. It shows that there are some people who oppose bilingual education. That doesn’t indicate whether bilingual education is increasing or decreasing in popularity overall. Also, I didn’t understand what you meant when you wrote that “there is growing antipathy toward having children learn more than one language.” That could be interpreted as meaning that people are against anyone in any public school learning any foreign language. I didn’t realize that you meant bilingual education. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/90 "2008-03-10T03:03:27Z")
I remember the Dr. Dolittle books I got out from the library when I was a kid, with the unexpurgated character of Prince [Bumpo.](http://blog.plover.com/book/Dolittle.html) He had some stereotypical characteristics and was an overeducated twit but overall was a courageous and helpful man who later became a wise king back in Africa. There’s one Grimm story about a mother bird who get caught and dyed a weird color by a boy, and when she’s set free the other birds chase and hit her until she reaches the safety of the her own nest. Wherein her own terrified chicks peck her to death. :eek: ☹ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Them](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/898d66/32.png) [@The\_Them](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Them)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/91 "2008-03-10T03:37:56Z")
Glad to see H.C. Andersen hasn’t been completely forgotten. Here’s from _The Wicked Prince:_ Many a poor mother, with her naked babe, hid away behind the smoking ruins, and the soldiers sought her, and found her and the child, and then began their devilish sport: Childrens’ lit _should_ be weird; otherwise, they won’t read. They’ll play _Grand Theft Auto_. Which is weird, so they like it. And Google “Tinkerbell Images Disney” sometime for a feel of how ALL ages that movie is… There are things I would not show a child. Prollem is, they’re the so-called “wholesome” things. Better the lil’ dears watch hardcore PRON than Barney the Lobotomizing Dinosaur. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/92 "2008-03-10T03:59:58Z")
[QUOTE=Sir Prize] “The Giving Tree” by Shel Silverstein disturbed me as a kid and disturbs me now. Great story. [/QUOTE] That was my favorite book as a child until I discovered _Charlotte’s Web_, which I’d start reading again the moment I finished that last page, multiple times. I didn’t find _The Giving Tree_ disturbing at all as a child, it was actually comforting to know that the old man would return to the one that cared for him as he grew through life. I did find _Alice in Wonderland_ pretty disturbing though. Bad dreams, bad dreams! ---
**Author:** ![pipperroo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7feea3/32.png) [@pipperroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pipperroo)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/93 "2008-03-10T04:04:29Z")
[QUOTE=CC] I can’t believe no one has mentioned _Little Black Sambo_, one of my favorite Little Golden Books from when I was a kid - a stereotypically black boy with brightly colored lips, etc. He gets run in circles around a tree by some hungry tigers and turned into a puddle of butter. I think we’d find that a tad inappropriate today. I also find the Grimm stories grim, including The Little Match Girl, who freezes to death. My parents didn’t read that one to me, but I discovered it in later years. Didn’t read it to my kids, either. xo, C. [/QUOTE] Golden books reissued this a few years back as _Little Rajani_. He cleverly escapes being eaten by tigers, and removing the racist pictures, its a very good story. There is also an introduction that the original Little Black Sambo stories were written by an Englishwoman living in India. ---
**Author:** ![Elret](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Elret](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elret)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/94 "2008-03-10T12:51:20Z")
[QUOTE=Mehitabel] There’s one Grimm story about a mother bird who get caught and dyed a weird color by a boy, and when she’s set free the other birds chase and hit her until she reaches the safety of the her own nest. Wherein her own terrified chicks peck her to death. :eek: ☹ [/QUOTE] :eek: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/95 "2008-03-10T13:03:17Z")
[QUOTE=mobo85] The original _Charlie and the Chocolate Factory_ explained that the Oompa-Loompas were originally African tribesmen whom Willy Wonka captured to work in his factory. After a complaint from author Eleanor Campbell published in the children’s literacy magazine _The Horn Book_, Dahl changed the Oompa-Loompa’s origin- rather than Africa, they were captured from the mythical Loompaland. [/QUOTE] He also changed their color from chocolate brown to white with green and orange hair (I think). He had to take out one of the best lines, when Charlie wondering about the Ooompa-Loompas origin says “I think Mr. Wonka carved them himself, out of chocolate.” I am disappointed that Dahl caved in to the PC police like that. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/96 "2008-03-10T13:07:09Z")
[QUOTE=Sir Prize] “The Giving Tree” by Shel Silverstein disturbed me as a kid and disturbs me now. Great story. [/QUOTE] I was a teen the first time I read this and I was nauseated at this book and how it is considered a children’s book. It is a greedy selfish boy that continuously takes from his tree ( mother) until there is nothing left. It is co-dependency. I cringe every time I see this book. ---
**Author:** ![BaneSidhe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c5a1d2/32.png) [@BaneSidhe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BaneSidhe)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/97 "2008-03-10T15:48:26Z")
How were the Nancy Drew books weird? I read almost all of them as a kid and don’t remember anything weird. But that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/98 "2008-03-10T17:21:14Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] And yet, the [original book](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Remus) was not really racist, except in its employment of a broad African-American dialect. It was simply a collection of authentic black folktales. [/QUOTE] I wouldn’t call the use of dialect overly broad. A similar dialect was still in use in rural Bladen County, NC as recently as 1985. Of course, it was only the old men who spoke like that. I imagine they’re all dead by now. ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/99 "2008-03-10T18:06:56Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] [A charming, educational children’s book about the life of a fascinating desert reptile.](http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/17/8e/dcf69833e7a0cceb904f0110._AA240_.L.jpg) [/QUOTE] Someday, somewhere, I’m going to use that picture as an avatar. ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488/100 "2008-03-10T18:07:16Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] He also changed their color from chocolate brown to white with green and orange hair (I think). [/QUOTE] The new Oompa-Loompas have golden-brown hair and rosy-white skin. The 1971 Wolper Productions film depicts orange-skinned Oompa-Loompas with green hair, and the 2005 film depicts regular, human-looking Oompa-Loompas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wierdness-in-old-childrens-books/440488.md?page=6)