# Wife, mother (or daughter) listed first **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 25, 2021, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wife-mother-or-daughter-listed-first/953137 "2021-10-25T00:58:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2021, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wife-mother-or-daughter-listed-first/953137/1 "2021-10-25T00:58:26Z")
Continuing the discussion from [Alec Baldwin [accidentally] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun/952960/499): Pulling this to a new thread so the original can be more about the accident itself. > [@Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21}](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/499): > > > [@Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21}](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/497): > > > > It’s not like the Kobe example is the only time these sorts of things are reported on, though. And I can’t recall a situation whereone ey did it like this, putting the one aspect relevant why she died as third. > > It’s a weak argument to say “OK you disproved this one example, but I’m sure there are many others.” Are there really? > > And the complaint wasn’t about mentioning why she died, it was about the news story prioritizing her family over her job title. I’m sure if they reported it the other way around, someone would find a way to get mad about that as well. > > > [@Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21}](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/497): > > > > It’s hard to come up with a reason why they would do this. Why would anyone need to be reminded she’s a daughter? > > Did someone actually describe her as a daughter? Do you have a source for that? This again seems like people wanting to get spun up about something without even seeing the thing being talked about. > > > [@Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21}](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/497): > > > > And why would she need to have a kid to matter? > > When I read a news story, I get emotionally engaged about the death of someone’s mom, dad, wife, husband, whatever. I care about the loss of a person, and the pain it causes their loved ones. Not so much if it’s just the death of a cinematographer I never heard of, delaying a movie I probably don’t care about, by an actor that I’m mostly indifferent to. > > Just so we’re all on the same page, I believe this is the quote that people are getting heated up about. No mention that she’s “somebody’s daughter.” > [https://twitter.com/AlecBaldwin/status/1451572461787439106](https://twitter.com/AlecBaldwin/status/1451572461787439106) > > what a jerk, right? Find the point in my post where I called him a jerk. It’s not there. We were discussing whether the comment would be different if the person who died was a man. Yes, that would be sexist, but, just like every form of bigotry, one can be sexist without being a jerk. Just because someone isn’t trying to treat women differently doesn’t mean they won’t. You actually described the problem. You were the one who brought up the daughter thing. You argued that merely mentioning that a woman died would not get you read most of the article, but that mentioning she was a wife and mother would change that. But that right there is the issue. Why wouldn’t “actress died on tragic on-set gun accident” be enough to get you reading? Focusing on an special reason for the example is actually the weaker argument. The circumstances of Kobe’s death do not apply to the vast majority of male deaths that do not need to remind us that they are a father or husband (or son) to get people to care enough to read “past the fold.” It’s only with women where you see men having to remind people of the family role first. Like it or not, there really is a societal issue where women get reduces to family roles first. Think of all the times we had to fight misogyny by mentioning that woman was “someone’s daughter, wife, and mother.” Baldwin may not be a jerk in this instance, but the way we value women for their family role first is an issue, and you can’t refute it by arguintheople get upset about everything these days. That argument never helps. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2021, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wife-mother-or-daughter-listed-first/953137/2 "2021-10-25T01:20:45Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Baldwin may not be a jerk in this instance, but the way we value women for their family role first is an issue, and you can’t refute it by arguintheople get upset about everything these days. That argument never helps. I said this in the other thread. You DIE at your job. You really want to be remembered for that job above all other? You think I, as a man, want this? If I died at my job, because of that job? Women are really jealous of men who get the privilege to die at work? If you don’t want to be remembered as a wife or mother, don’t get married and don’t have kids. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2021, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wife-mother-or-daughter-listed-first/953137/3 "2021-10-25T10:31:10Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You actually described the problem. You were the one who brought up the daughter thing. Uh… no. Go back and read. Nobody ever mentioned her in a context as someone’s daughter until you decided to clutch your pearls about it. I stepped in to correct your falsehood. You can now stop being confused about that. > [@BigT](#): > > You argued that merely mentioning that a woman died would not get you read most of the article, but that mentioning she was a wife and mother would change that. But that right there is the issue. Ridiculous. You read this to mean “I only care about women if they’re mothers.” What I meant is “Tragedies have more impact when I know the family effects.” Mothers and fathers equally. Another example of motivated misreading and confusion on your part. I’m a dedicated family man. I’d want my news headline to read “dedicated husband and father”, not “respected assistant vice manager of marketing at North-Southern Widgets.” My job isn’t what my life was about. > [@](#): > > Like it or not, there really is a societal issue where women get reduces to family roles first. Like it or not, I’ve caught you in a falsehood, and now you’re doubling down. Next. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2021, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wife-mother-or-daughter-listed-first/953137/4 "2021-10-25T12:52:13Z")
I made reference to this in the other thread: it is a very common thing in expressions of sympathy or mourning to put the impact on family first and _then_ the public achievements. Most quotes regarding Hutchins are someone in the trade saying how sad/tragic is her loss, who take the sympathy-first approach. And _then_ everyone goes on to highlight what a bright path she was making in her field. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2021, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wife-mother-or-daughter-listed-first/953137/5 "2021-10-25T13:22:59Z")
For my perspective, I wouldn’t mind being referred to as “husband, father, son, grandfather, brother, engineer” because the first are what I am, the last is what I do. Family relationships are more fundamental than professional ones. It’s a matter of appropriate priorities, regardless of gender. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2021, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wife-mother-or-daughter-listed-first/953137/6 "2021-10-25T13:32:59Z")
The problem isn’t that we place too high a value on a woman’s role as a wife or mother. The problem is that [society devalues](https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/578085-buttigieg-aims-to-use-tucker-carlson-flap-to-spotlight-on-paternity) the emotional importance of a man’s role as husband and father. I think many (most?) parents would agree that parenthood is a defining characteristic of their adult lives, but we only really allow women to acknowledge that. The patriarchy demands that men be unyielding, unchanging, strongly silent providers. Fatherhood doesn’t define them! They define their children. They define their family. If they don’t get called “husband and father of two” in articles about untimely deaths, it’s because the writer rightly judges that there’s not enough pathos there to make it worth the ink. **That’s** the problem. Sometimes it’s helpful to remember that the patriarchy fucks up society’s views of manhood/masculinity/whatever you want to call it just as badly as it fucks up everything else.