Will a plane on a treadmill take off?

Actually I learned something useful: that some people have an irrational hatred of discussions that do not have a clear YES or NO answer.

As for aircraft carriers, that’s not really analogous to tradmills. Aircraft on carriers start out being anchored to the deck, moving with the speed of the carrier. So if the carrier is moving forward, the aircraft needs less relative speed to take off. If an aircraft on a treadmill starts out at rest relative to the ground, a moving treadmill under it does not assist takeoff at all.

pick,pick,piiick… I ready to let this one die. Ladies and Gentlemen, a vow of silence for the airplane on a treadmill thread… please

Actually its a pretty good analogy. The difference is that if you wanted to use a treadmill on an aircraft carrier you would have to accelerate the treadmill to ridiculous speeds to make it work (thousands and thousands of MPHs). If you did that you would either have to have ridiculously strong and massive tires or you would rip them to shreads. The advantage of using a physical link between the launching deelie is that you can (more or less) apply as much force through that link as you want. Theoretically you could launch a plane and get it airborn with both apparatuses (treadmill or steam piston launcher) but if you use a treadmill the tires on the plane would be spinning at an extremely high rate (like 50 million RPM high).

Whoops; you’re right, of course. The forces from the jet and from the belt are equal and opposite, but energy flow is from the belt into the wheel. Damn magic conveyors.

Eh. Thought experiments and the exploration of limiting conditions of physical systems can often provide some interesting insights into How Stuff Works. They’re good teaching tools, too.

That is, they’re good teaching tools when directed at those who are interested and willing to learn. I would suggest that those people who aggressively flaunt their ignorance, to the extent of not even bothering to read the OP and making what can be charitably described as misguided comments, will probably get less out of these kinds of discussions than others. You obviously disagree.

How would spinning the wheels of a jet help it launch?

I’m the first to admit that my knowledge of physics is very limited. Limited to a few astronomy courses and one intro level course.

Can somebody please draw a diagram with arrows that represent the forces involved?

http://rapidshare.de/files/8898730/forces.pdf.html

Basically what happens is that the treadmill accelerates the tires and by action/reaction it in turn accelerates the airplane. With a few simplifying assumptions (mainly that the angular acceleration of the tires is >>> acceleration of the plane along with the normal frictionless bearings, air resistance etc. etc.) you find that the angular acceleration of the tire is radius of the wheelsmass of plane/I wheels times the acceleration of the plane. After integration we find that the angular velocity is RM/I times the acceleration of the plane. For practical numbers here R is on the order of .5 meters, I is on the order of 50 Kgm^2 and M is 14000 Kg. Basically that means the tires rotate at 1400Speed of the plane (RPMs and m/s for units). For a take off speed of approximately 500 miles per hour your tires are rotating at 315,000 RPM.

http://rapidshare.de/files/8900092/aircraft_carrier.pdf.html

Thanks treis.

Thanks!

Actually, I thought this was one of the better threads I’ve read in a while.

It took alot of work for me to mentally figure out where the problem really was. I knew the air-speed over the wings was all that mattered to get in the air. I knew the thrust of the engines was sure as heck going to move that thing forward.

But I also knew that the wheel speed/belt speed (based on my assumptions about wheel speed) meant no forward progress was possible.

What I couldn’t figure out was, what was I missing in this contradiction?

As I read posts, thought about other arguments, etc. I was forced to really dive down to a level of detail I didn’t expect after first reading the OP, and ultimately the answer becomes, not one of physics, but one of language in the OP.

I don’t know if this has been mentioned yet in the 6 pages of posts (I only had time to read the first page.), but I know for a fact that it is physically impossible for a plane to achieve lift off on a treadmill for the simple fact that there are no treadmill runways on any aircraft carriers or on military airbases. If this was possible there would be no Harrier jet and there would be very tiny airports.

Its too bad that you didn’t read the entire thread becuase I just proved that is in fact possible to launch a jet from a treadmill albeit extremely impracticle.

Not that I don’t appreciate the efforts in this thread, but in order to cut to the chase in this lengthy dissertation which post # got it right re the answer?

This is the point that I missed in the beginning, by the way, as I noted back in post #103.

Oh well, nobody’s perfect.

There are two possible interpetations for what is meant by the problem. The first is that the treadmill goes backwards with a speed equal to the forward linear speed of the plane. In that case the plane takes off requiring slightly more energy and a slightly longer distance. The second case is that the treadmill speed is equal and opposite to the linear speed on the edge of the tire. In that case the plane does not take off but spins its wheels faster and faster. Eventually the tires will fail and your plane goes shooting off the back of the treadmill. If we assume indestructable tires eventually relativistic effects take over and the tires become more and more massive but the plane still doesn’t take off.

See my pdf will pretty pictures and the math:

http://rapidshare.de/files/8904504/answer.pdf.html

So are you now convinced that the plane cannot achieve flight?

I think zut’s post #224 and treis’s post #255 both summed things up pretty well.

It depends on the assumptions made about the problem. However, I now believe I was wrong to flatly state that the plane would take off under all conditions, as if the plane was taking off from a frictionless surface.

I wasn’t wrong, I just wasn’t totally correct.

you are right the friction between the conveyor and the wheel must be dealt with, as negligible as it may be.

Am I correct to assume that in a frictionless environment that as soon as the plane started to move the conveyor would have to reach infinite speed? Any movement of the plane at all relavent to the ground (sans conveyor) would elicite a reaction that would destroy all physical properties as we know them. Hence, the problem cannot be solved in the frictionless environment. We can only solve this problem in the practical reference. That of which the conveyor reacts to the speed opposite the tires.

[QUOTE=bouv]
Can the plane take off?

The fact that the plane has wheels that spin is irrelevant. The fact that people are confusing the wording of the problem is completely relevant as well as the minor logical imperfections and areas open to interpretation of the original poster’s question, so here are few thoughts I’d like to add without digressing into any particularly confusing or cryptic examples.

The most common interpretation is that the tires are spinning as the treadmill is spinning, and there is the assumption that applying forward thrust to the airplane makes the tires spin, which makes the treadmill spin under them at the same speed. We can make different assumptions for a powered treadmill, and intelligent treadmill that adjusts itself to the speed of the wheels automatically (take speed of zero for instance, as another posted suggested, and play with that for a bit).

The real problem here is that some don’t grasp is that the wheels have nothing to do with the power source of the airplane, so let’s try this:

Put a glider with wheels on a treadmill. Put Jim and Larry and Bob and Fran on the treadmill. Jim, Bob and Larry and Fran push on the glider from behind…what happens to the glider as the ground speed of the treadmill increases? The glider wheels move and so do Jim, Bob, Larry and Fran until they get tired and can’t push anymore. The glider will stay there as long as the wheels continue to spin under the glider.

With the Jet airplane, the thrust is external to the treadmill/wheel system, so pushing with a stick at the back of the airplane will move the airplane. pushing with a stick while on the treadmill yourself and while attached to the airplane will have no affect. If you are on the treadmill and on rollerblades and push on the airplane with a stick, the opposing forces equal about zero (given friction, etc.) and you will be propelled backward because you weight much less than the airplane you pushed on.

With the jet airplane, the only thing that matters is that the jet is pushing on the plane. The wheels can do whatever they want and spin as fast as they want, but it won’t make the plane go any slower or stay still unless the jet engine had absolutely no thrust and was instead used to drive a belt or shaft that drove the wheels. This would be a huge problem because as soon as the plane hit take-off speed, the wheels would not have anything to accelerate against (the ground or treadmill) and the plane would crash after briefly taking flight. So of the plane were driven only by wheels, it would not fly, and a plane of this type would never be designed in the first place, except for an hang glider, a kite, or a parasail.

Now, you could fly a kite while sitting in a wagon on a treadmill, but you would have a hard time launching a hang gliding.

If we clamp the plane to the tarmac or the base assembly of the treadmill will the plane take off? No. It has all the additional weight of the treadmill to try to push forward and we assume the thrust of the engines is not that great? This will also pose some serious aerodynamic problems if the plane were eventually able to drage the entire treadmill assembly down the runway until it achieved take-off speed. Will the ropes holding the plane to the base of the treadmill be pulled taught? Yes. What will happen if the ropes are released? The plane will take off.

For those that are so certain that the plane will not take, off try this: stand behind the airplane with a rope tied to it and tied to your waist (or neck or arms for the more disgusting among you) while your feet are tied to the tarmac. Is this something you are willing to do try to prove your point as the engines go to max thrust?

What would happen if we put another treadmill on the top of the plane attached to another set of wheels protruding from the top of the plane and the bottom treadmill and top treadmill were operated in opposite directions thereby cancelling each other out? The wheels will just spin under the friction of the airplane and the airplane will stand still. When the engines are lit and the air is blown out the back of them at high speed, the plane will then move and will take off after the plane overcomes the friction of the wheels against the treadmills, which is very small.