# Will all real creationists please stand up? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2008, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949 "2008-11-29T18:38:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/41 "2008-12-01T15:19:00Z")
I can’t speak for Liberal, of course, but I see \*his \*dialog going something like this: **Hopes and Dreams and Everything Liberal Adores:** Heya. **Liberal:** God? **Hopes and Dreams and Everything Liberal Adores:** Uh, no, I’m just those things you find wonderful about the universe, don’t give me any special significance. I’m not conscious and have no existence beyond the one you gave me. **Liberal:** God! **Hopes and Dreams and Everything Liberal Adores:** Uh, look if it makes you happier to conflate the positive things in life with a separate thinking entity, then go ahead. But really, I’m just something you convinced yourself is real to make yourself happy. And that’s okay. Isn’t that more likely than the other one? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/42 "2008-12-01T15:26:09Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Isn’t that more likely than the other one? Not according to the materialists I’ve talked to. They pretty much all tell me that after death, there is nothing. The conversation you describe would pretty much fly in the face of that. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/43 "2008-12-01T15:29:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **don’t ask** > When I was psych nursing many years ago one of the guys I worked with was trying to convince a group of patients that he believed he was Jesus Christ. He did the water into wine bit with potassium permanganate crystals and the patients immediately became his disciples. > [@FriarTed](#): > > Yeah, but how did it taste? Probably not very good, but I’ll bet he got away with it by claiming it was kosher wine. (Now where’s the Orthodox Jewish smiley when we need him?) ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/44 "2008-12-01T15:41:57Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Not according to the materialists I’ve talked to. They pretty much all tell me that after death, there is nothing. The conversation you describe would pretty much fly in the face of that. The idea is that it’s a conversation that many believers have had in their own head \*before \*they died. Belief in God is like falling in love with a girl you’ve never talked to. \*You \*supply both sides of the romance in your head. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/45 "2008-12-01T15:46:44Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Not according to the materialists I’ve talked to. They pretty much all tell me that after death, there is nothing. The conversation you describe would pretty much fly in the face of that. In fairness, this materialist believes you could hallucinate all kinds of things during brain stem death, including well-reasoned debates with one’s personal image of g/God. I’m hoping to perform _Ain’t Love a Kick In The Head_ as a duet with Pauly Shore. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/46 "2008-12-01T17:16:57Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > This is a typical sort of argument. So do I understand right, that when I reach the pearly gates, a dialog like this might happen? > > **God:** So, Mijin, how come you didn’t believe in me? > > **Mijin:** There was no evidence. No good reason to. > > **God:** But didn’t you deep down inside _know_ I existed? I put this knowledge / faith inside every person. > > **Mijin:** Erm, I guess you didn’t do it strong enough? At a conscious level I was not aware of any such intuition. > > **God:** Nonetheless I accept no culpability. To hell with you! > > \*\*Mijin: \*\* Doh! God desires none to perish but all to come to repentance. God went so far as to sacrifice His only Son. He has shown He will do whatever is needed, without violating His Word, to save us. We can see this even with the thief on the cross, who at the last moment of life came to repentance (Luke 23:41-43). There is the issue of salvation, which is irrevocable (John 10:28-29), and heavenly rewards which is dependent on if you overcome (at least for man) (Rev 2:7, 11,17,26). The only unpardonable sin mentioned is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. With the promise of John 10:28-29 is is clear that the believer can not commit this, it is reserved for the unbeliever. Looking at the thief on the cross, we can see that it was revealed that Jesus was who He said He was, which shows that God is willing to save even the unbeliever if they are open to it. As for your conversation with God, I suspect it will go: 1 - If you were a follower of Jesus “Well done good and faithful servant” 2 - If you accepted Jesus, such as a deathbed acceptance “enter into my Kingdom” 3 - If you didn’t accept Jesus, even at the last moment of life, perhaps God will have your life flash before your eyes, showing you when He tried to contact you, or how you lived your life and still reject him and blaspheme His Spirit, I suspect "depart into the eternal fire reserved for the devil and his angels.’ Either way I don’t suspect you (or I) will have much to say. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/47 "2008-12-01T17:18:32Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I can’t speak for kanicbird, of course, but I see the dialog going something like this: > > **God:** Hi, Mijin! > > **Mijin:** Who the hell are you? > > **God:** I’m God. > > **Mijim:** You can’t be. You’re my hopes and dreams and everything I adore. God is this thing people kept telling me about that I found to be reprehensible. > > **God:** Call me anything you like. And welcome. I see the dialog more like this: **Huitzilopochtli:** Hey there, Liberal! **Liberal** Woah, what’s that bright light? Who are you? **Huitzilopochtli:** I’m the Aztec god of the sun. All that Christianity stuff was bunk. You bet on the wrong horse, dude. **Liberal:** I don’t believe you! God is universal love! **Huitzilopochtli:** Uh, no. Actually you should have been making daily sacrifices to me all along. Dying in battle would have been a good idea too. Too late now. Enjoy the underworld! ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/48 "2008-12-01T17:23:11Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > So which is it? To get this gift of faith, do we have to make the effort to ask for it, or not? None of that makes sense to me. It’s really both. God made us to ask > [@](#): > > And what if we _had_ faith, then realized it was based on nothing but hopes and wishes, so we abandoned it? That situation I think describes what’s happened with most of us here. Did God come in and take back our faith? You may have shipwrecked your faith, which you will be saved, but ineffective to God here on earth. IMHO someone anointed by God will hand you over to Satan, which will save you (as salvation is irrevocable) -or- You never knew God, but man made rules of religion. Losing faith in this is a step towards knowing the living God. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/49 "2008-12-01T17:33:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > You learned this through man’s ways, give God’s way a chance. If God exists, he gave me a brain, and it would be an affront to him not to use it. If God exists, he placed evidence of evolution all around us. Sure, some people wrote a book a long time before we woke up enough to see it, but now we do. Do you think God will be pleased with you for closing your eyes to his work? > [@](#): > > Parents are instructed to raise up their children in the ways of the Lord, and they will not depart from His path. We are instructed to live by faith, not sight. Scriptures point to teaching of the Law (of God), I can’t recall any scriptures about modern schooling except in the case of captured exiles, taught by the conquering kingdoms, such as Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah. The very first story in my very first “history” book in Hebrew school concerned Abram and the idols in Ur. As a young boy, he learned that the idols were supposed to eat the offerings made to them during the night. Since he was a skeptic, he spread flour over the floor of the room with the idols, and found footprints in it the next morning. If he lived by faith alone, the way you recommend, he’d still be worshiping idols, and his mind wouldn’t have been clear for God’s words. If you think God gave you a brain, I recommend you use it to consider all the evidence and all hypotheses that compete with your blind faith. Are you really positive that God will be happy with you closing your eyes to his work? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/50 "2008-12-01T17:36:10Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The only unpardonable sin mentioned is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. With the promise of John 10:28-29 is is clear that the believer can not commit this, it is reserved for the unbeliever. Looking at the thief on the cross, we can see that it was revealed that Jesus was who He said He was, which shows that God is willing to save even the unbeliever if they are open to it. > > As for your conversation with God, I suspect it will go: > 1 - If you were a follower of Jesus “Well done good and faithful servant” > 2 - If you accepted Jesus, such as a deathbed acceptance “enter into my Kingdom” > 3 - If you didn’t accept Jesus, even at the last moment of life, perhaps God will have your life flash before your eyes, showing you when He tried to contact you, or how you lived your life and still reject him and blaspheme His Spirit, I suspect "depart into the eternal fire reserved for the devil and his angels.’ Or he might say "you idiot, did you really think that a just and merciful God would sentence any good people to eternal torment? That is the real blasphemy against me. I won’t even sentence you to it, but you go to Monkey Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/51 "2008-12-01T18:02:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > _sigh_ Look, just to settle this once and for all, as of this moment, I hereby create the Universe. Hey, thanks dude. could you make me richer next time? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/52 "2008-12-01T18:09:41Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The only unpardonable sin mentioned is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. With the promise of John 10:28-29 is is clear that the believer can not commit this, it is reserved for the unbeliever. Yep, unbelieving. Way worse than child gang rape. So God demands that we choose to believe, even though that’s one thing we cannot do? > [@](#): > > If you didn’t accept Jesus, even at the last moment of life, perhaps God will have your life flash before your eyes, showing you when He tried to contact you, or how you lived your life and still reject him and blaspheme His Spirit, I suspect "depart into the eternal fire reserved for the devil and his angels.’ So…let me get it straight. God has left no indisputible evidence of his existence. But he’s kinda contacted us, enough to convince some people. But at the moment when we die, he then contacts us in a much clearer way, so we can be sure he exists and that we’re not hallucinating. So we get a last chance to say we believe. Which we all will, obviously, because we’re sure he exists and that we’re not hallucinating. And we all repent because who’d choose to go to hell? It’s absurd. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/53 "2008-12-01T18:20:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If God exists, he gave me a brain, and it would be an affront to him not to use it. If God exists, he placed evidence of evolution all around us. Sure, some people wrote a book a long time before we woke up enough to see it, but now we do. Do you think God will be pleased with you for closing your eyes to his work? It is written: [QUOTE=Romans 1:25] They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. [/QUOTE] Placing anything above God is idolatry. We are also instructed to seek first the Kingdom of God. It’s how we use the mind He gives us. He does not want us to place creation above our Creator. The Creator will not take a back seat to His creation, nor does it make any sense to place creation above the Creator. How can anyone justify himself in putting creation above the Creator? > [@](#): > > The very first story in my very first “history” book in Hebrew school concerned Abram and the idols in Ur. As a young boy, he learned that the idols were supposed to eat the offerings made to them during the night. Since he was a skeptic, he spread flour over the floor of the room with the idols, and found footprints in it the next morning. I do remember hearing this story, but AFAIK it is not scriptural and if so one can not place it in the same contest as scriptures. [QUOTE=Deut 4:] 2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you. [/QUOTE] But I can see something along that happening, there are many gods but one God (1 Cor 8:5), and gods are given powers. Some people did not know God, and have had many gods and I believe those gods did and do express real power. > [@](#): > > If he lived by faith alone, the way you recommend, he’d still be worshiping idols, and his mind wouldn’t have been clear for God’s words. God is the one who gives faith as He sees fit. Yes He can come to someone, even in person, which no longer puts it in the category of faith, but faith is required to do the Lord’s work. > [@](#): > > If you think God gave you a brain, I recommend you use it to consider all the evidence and all hypotheses that compete with your blind faith. Are you really positive that God will be happy with you closing your eyes to his work? Not closing my mind, but conforming what I observe to Him, not conforming Him to the world view (which he states is just a shadow of the truth - this is a paraphrase). I used to believe in evolution, big bang, and tried to reconcile creationism to it, stretching out the time line. God has shown me personally that it was the wrong way to go about it, put Him first, believe His Word and (again to me), the illusion of this world was revealed, and I must admit it is a very very good illusion, but I absolutely know with everything in me that it is a illusion. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/54 "2008-12-01T18:40:58Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Yep, unbelieving. Way worse than child gang rape. Yes it is. God can use anything and turn it for the good, even child gang rape. Here are some of the promises from Romans 8: > [@](#): > > 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus > 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. > 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. > 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Believers are God’s adopted children, God’s own sons and daughters, God who is in such total control that whatever we have done will be forgiven eventually forgotten and we will be justified by God Himself and He will arrange that whatever it was it will be for the good. I’m not saying there are not consequences in this world for actions, but we are all guilty in that respect, some people get caught, some people don’t, in one way or another we all have fallen short. Works is not the way to the Kingdom of God, we simply can’t meet the standard required. > [@](#): > > So God demands that we choose to believe, even though that’s one thing we cannot do? Ask and you shall receive. Is it so hard to ask Jesus to help you believe in Him? It’s the simplest thing that everyone can do - which is part of the beauty of what God has done, making it possible for everyone to come to Him - no schooling required, and if asked truly it will place more of the responsibility on God (though the responsibility has always been His) to lead you to Him. > [@](#): > > So…let me get it straight. God has left no indisputible evidence of his existence. But he’s kinda contacted us, enough to convince some people. I would say that everyone knows God at conception, as we learn the ways of the world we forgot about the ways of God. As we come to God again He shows us that there is indisputable evidence all around us of His existence. It is the ways of this world that blinds us. > [@](#): > > But at the moment when we die, he then contacts us in a much clearer way, so we can be sure he exists and that we’re not hallucinating. For some, not all, people I believe this is true > [@](#): > > And we all repent because who’d choose to go to hell? > > It’s absurd. The way I understand it, going to Hell is not so much as a punishment but as a result of one being unwilling to be with God. A condition that one’s heart has been so hardened it can’t accept God anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/55 "2008-12-01T18:49:03Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > . . . Belief in God is like falling in love with a girl you’ve never talked to. \*You \*supply both sides of the romance in your head. I have to write this down somewhere, so I won’t forget it. Thanks, Lobohan. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/56 "2008-12-01T18:58:10Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Is it so hard to ask Jesus to help you believe in Him? There are so many different religions and gods. Why pick Jesus and not Ganesh? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/57 "2008-12-01T19:00:27Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > There are so many different religions and gods. Why pick Jesus and not Ganesh? I’m afraid of elephants?😃 ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/58 "2008-12-01T19:22:38Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > As for your conversation with God, I suspect it will go: > 1 - If you were a follower of Jesus “Well done good and faithful servant” > 2 - If you accepted Jesus, such as a deathbed acceptance “enter into my Kingdom” > 3 - If you didn’t accept Jesus, even at the last moment of life, perhaps God will have your life flash before your eyes, showing you when He tried to contact you, or how you lived your life and still reject him and blaspheme His Spirit, I suspect "depart into the eternal fire reserved for the devil and his angels.’ That “Kneel before Zod!” bullshit kind of puts the lie to the “kind and benevolent God” meme, doesn’t it? > [@kanicbird](#): > > As we come to God again He shows us that there is indisputable evidence all around us of His existence. It would be nice if your false God would show us that indisputable evidence _when it’s actually useful_. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/59 "2008-12-01T19:26:48Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Maybe i misspoke, but In terms of concession i meant that i can see how certain people can buy into the creationist myth despite existing scientific evidence. I don’t personally believe in the creationist myth but i can understand how someone with an established faith can use that analogy to justify their position. > > I’m asking for other rationales that creationists believe in that may answer questions i have regarding the bible. Maybe it’d help if I listed some things I have problems coming to terms with: I’m not quite sure where I fit in here. I am a Creationist in the sense that I believe that God created the Universe. IOW, I don’t think it happened all by itself. Nonetheless, I will be the first to admit that I don’t believe that you can prove the existence of God short of a direct revelation; and, as such, I cannot prove that the universe was created by God. It’s simply my belief. Secondly, not all Creationists take the Bible ultra-literally or believe in a universe that is only ~6000 years old. There are plenty of us “Old Earth” Creationists out there too. So, in terms of your OP, I’m not quite sure where I fit in. As for your other questions: > [@](#): > > 1 - Why did this omnipresent god so favor a minor nomadic sect of people for 3-4000 years before bestowing salvation to the rest of the masses? I know that you’re probably addressing this to the Christian majority rather than the Jewish (and even smaller Orthodox Jewish) minority. Since salvation, as termed in your question, is a Christian concept, I can’t answer the question directly. Nonetheless, I can attempt to answer the question of why God chose the Jews to convey His message. I suppose, ultimately, the reason is known only to Him. No one can know the true reason God does anything. However, [Tevye] as it states in the Good Book[/Tevye], God chose Abraham and his descendants to receive the Torah. Perhaps it’s because Abraham served God when no one else in the world did so. > [@](#): > > 2 - Doesn’t the obvious differences between the old testament god and the new testament god bother any of you? Well, obviously it doesn’t bother me all that much. 🙂 > [@](#): > > 3 - How much of the Bible is actually divinely inspired, and what parts? Why not just make the divinely inspired portions of the Bible - the Bible? Why were other historical accounts rejected for inclusion into the Bible and not the existing historical accounts? The traditional Jewish answer is that the Pentatuch was dictated from God to Moses. The rest of the Bible was simply inspired by God. The choice of which works to include in the canon of the Jewish Bible was determined during the Second Temple period. That does mean that there weren’t other works extant or that they didn’t enjoy a degree of popularity among the people. I don’t know what the specific criteria for inclusion were. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/60 "2008-12-01T20:44:46Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That “Kneel before Zod!” bullshit kind of puts the lie to the “kind and benevolent God” meme, doesn’t it? Here we kneel out of free will. In front of God it will not be optional, but every knee will bow simply because of who Jesus is. It will not be forced by anything external, but your spirit will kneel, if not fall flat on your face, as it will be the only thing it can do. > [@](#): > > It would be nice if your false God would show us that indisputable evidence _when it’s actually useful_. That’s mainly how it works, when there is no other option and we as a last resort call out to Him and He answers. Unfortunately this is what it takes for most of us. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949.md?page=4)