# Will all real creationists please stand up? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2008, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949 "2008-11-29T18:38:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/101 "2008-12-02T18:09:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Sorta like the New Testament when God changes the rules regarding the Messiah? The Word was total and complete before the creation of the world. No rules were changed, just more revealed. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/102 "2008-12-02T18:39:55Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Do they make any sense to recognize them as such? The one that is often sighted is the Quran. The initial premise of it totally and completely fails IMHO. That Allah is so dam incompetent that he is unable to preserve his word through men and has to send a revision. It can not stand on it’s own. Well, in reality the term holy book or the written word is man’s designation and when it comes to personal spiritual growth almost anything can be used by the honest seeking heart, mind and spirit. > [@](#): > > They can be used in good faith and can be used in enemy spiritual growth, but God can turn even that around for the good. I see. So when Buddha teaches many of the same things Jesus taught he’s the enemy? > [@](#): > > To make this claim you have to assume that the God who created heaven and earth, holds the whole world together, knew each and every person before the foundations of the earth were laid could be upset in man’s efforts. That such a powerful God who controls each atom at the quantum level at all times in perfect knowleage would be unable to get us His Word how He wants. That’s incorrect. What it means is to justify a long held man made tradition about the Bible people have created justifications that conflict with their own beliefs and assumed things to be true for no other reason than tradition. The assumption is made that it was God’s plan that we have one final compilation of scripture in the Bible and , although many Christians including yourself believe the Holy Spirit guides us, there won’t be any more writings that should be considered scripture. The problem is that belief has no backing other than tradition. There is nothing in the very writings that Christians revere to indicate this was God’s plan. The other facts are that we know there were many more writings circulating in centuries after Jesus was crucified that were considered scripture by many, and it was a committee of men who selected the books we now have as the Bible. You are then willing to tread all over God’s gift of free will to claim God preserved his Word. The same all powerful ruler of the universe that allows men to choose to commit all manner of atrocities on each other, would not allow men to choose to corrupt these writings or select them for very human motives. The same God who issued this warning > [@](#): > > Rev 22: 18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. really had no intention of allowing that to happen. It has nothing to do with questioning an omnipotent beings ability to do something. It has to do with wondering whether it was ever God’s plan and trying to make some sense of it all in a cohesive manner. It’s about trying to sift the truth from all the tradition. > [@](#): > > The Word is God and God is one. This does not address the statement I made. So I’ll make it again It’s the\*\* fact\*\* that there is no type of prophecy indicating there was any intention of one final compilation of scripture. No indication that it was ever God’s plan. To make it so you assume a belief without any scriptural backing and then claim very inconstant qualities for God to support that belief. Namely that God violates man’s free will in some inconstant manner to preserve the written word even when all the evidence indicates that’s not true and it most assuredly has been changed. > [@](#): > > God has a answer for this, but it comes on a personal level. Seek the Lord and He will reveal what is His Word to you. If the apocrypha should be included, if Revelation really should be in there. He is willing to convince anyone who seeks, and He is the only one who can I have sought and believe I understand what it means. I believe a commitment to worshiping in spirit and in truth {John 4:24} is in order. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/103 "2008-12-02T19:12:52Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This is not something that I sought out specifically, but know the creation story is true. From the time of the fall of man to the flood is about 1000 years based on the age of Adam. > > This is the aspect I have sought out, which may or may not be of any use to you. When A&E fell, we separated ourselves from God. God’s plan for the salvation of humanity seems to be the separation for a time to be brought back together under Lord Jesus. In Genesis we have: > Gen 2 man and women divided into physical 2 beings > Gen 3 Man and woman divided spiritually (in 2 different kingdoms) > Gen 3 Man and God divided > Gen 4,5 Living and dead divided (Cane and Able 1st murder/death) > Gen 6-9 Man and angels divided (Nephilum line ended) > Gen 10-11 Man and man divided through confusion of language (Tower of Babel) > And later Israel split into 12 tribes > Divided kingdom Judah and Israel > Jesus separated from the Father > > As part of this separation things grow more distant, could this mean that stars are further away, our space-time is stretched out so we are more alone and disconnected from creation as well? I believe it shows how far we really are separated, how far we have fallen. So something, like the edge of the Milky Way should be reachable but is 1000’s of lightyears away. Thanks, but I’m not sure that’s really an answer. let’s try it a different way - could the human species have been around for more than, say, one million years? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/104 "2008-12-02T19:23:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Hell is a nightclub? Did I mention the shemale? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/105 "2008-12-02T20:04:45Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Thanks, but I’m not sure that’s really an answer. let’s try it a different way - could the human species have been around for more than, say, one million years? Mangetout I have not inquired or prayed about that aspect, nor has God revealed anything specific about that. My understanding of scripture would make that impossible, but since it’s not something I have sought out, nor have had revelation on it, I would have to say I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/106 "2008-12-02T20:15:27Z")
So the lake of fire is the absolute limit, then? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/107 "2008-12-02T20:44:12Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Mangetout I have not inquired or prayed about that aspect, nor has God revealed anything specific about that. My understanding of scripture would make that impossible, but since it’s not something I have sought out, nor have had revelation on it, I would have to say I don’t know. OK. Is that the same sort of answer you’re lilkely to give on _any_ matter concerning geology, paleontology, origins, cosmology, etc? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/108 "2008-12-02T20:44:12Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Well, in reality the term holy book or the written word is man’s designation and when it comes to personal spiritual growth almost anything can be used by the honest seeking heart, mind and spirit. The term ‘holy’ is very unique and refers to one of God’s attributes. Using it for anything else, such as the holy book of Satan is a misuse of the term and for that matter blasphemy. > [@](#): > > I see. So when Buddha teaches many of the same things Jesus taught he’s the enemy? Yes, anything that leads us away from Jesus and His glorification is against our best interest and of the enemy, or at least the flesh of man. > [@](#): > > That’s incorrect. What it means is to justify a long held man made tradition about the Bible people have created justifications that conflict with their own beliefs and assumed things to be true\*\* for no other reason than tradition\*\*. Bold mine, here you ignore the power of God to reveal Himself and His Word to you. Right now you may see contradictions and conflicts, but as He provided understanding the contradictions disappear, and the reason for conflicts become apparent and the truth is revealed. This is the work of God, not man. > [@](#): > > The assumption is made that it was God’s plan that we have one final compilation of scripture in the Bible Funny how people claim that since earth can support life despite the odds, it must have done it since here it ise, but when God puts scriptures in a single book, which makes total sense, a odd’s on favorite, you try to discredit it. Since it is in a single book is proof that it is. > [@](#): > > and , although many Christians including yourself believe the Holy Spirit guides us, there won’t be any more writings that should be considered scripture. The problem is that belief has no backing other than tradition. There is nothing in the very writings that Christians revere to indicate this was God’s plan. Actually there is, and it appears in the very last chapter of the very last book: [QUOTE=18] I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. [/QUOTE] Taken together with don’t subtract from them and this is the last command God tells man. Also just to point out Eve added to God’s Word in Gen 3:3 > [@](#): > > but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden,\*\* and you must not touch it,\*\* or you will die.’ " Bold mine, Eve added to the Word of God, as God never said not to touch it (which doesn’t even make sense, as if He said don’t touch it, there would be no need to say don’t eat of it) and we as humanity has endured every plague in scriptures (or will) > [@](#): > > The other facts are that we know there were many more writings circulating in centuries after Jesus was crucified that were considered scripture by many, and it was a committee of men who selected the books we now have as the Bible. Scriptures talk about these false teachings. The Holy Spirit is more then capable of sorting them out, and for that matter most require works for salvation and are identified as false on that basis IIRC. > [@](#): > > You are then willing to tread all over God’s gift of free will to claim God preserved his Word. The same all powerful ruler of the universe that allows men to choose to commit all manner of atrocities on each other, would not allow men to choose to corrupt these writings or select them for very human motives. Yes, our free will has limits, and one such is we can’t change His Word. Another such limit may be the speed of light. > [@](#): > > The same God who issued this warning Well Eve, as I pointed out above did add to His Word, which we see the effect, Satan was given a foothold and caused Eve to stray off of God’s path. > [@](#): > > really had no intention of allowing that to happen. > It has nothing to do with questioning an omnipotent beings ability to do something. It has to do with wondering whether it was ever God’s plan and trying to make some sense of it all in a cohesive manner. It’s about trying to sift the truth from all the tradition. Again God is the only one who can do this and He is willing to do this for you. > [@](#): > > This does not address the statement I made. So I’ll make it again > > It’s the\*\* fact\*\* that there is no type of prophecy indicating there was any intention of one final compilation of scripture. No indication that it was ever God’s plan. To make it so you assume a belief without any scriptural backing and then claim very inconstant qualities for God to support that belief. Namely that God violates man’s free will in some inconstant manner to preserve the written word even when all the evidence indicates that’s not true and it most assuredly has been changed. While I don’t recall of a verse that states: “The Lord will put all His Scripture in one book, that book will be translated to many languages, and in the English language that book will be called The Bible”. I do know that God desires us to have a complete copy of His Word, easy to obtain, and very low cost. He wants it available and complete for everyone. My own personal experience, I was actually held captive in 2 places for the Gospel, both times I prayed for a copy of His Word and both times it was given to me without me asking. > [@](#): > > I have sought and believe I understand what it means. I believe a commitment to worshiping in spirit and in truth {John 4:24} is in order. It’s a good start, it continues: > [@](#): > > 25The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” > > 26Then Jesus declared, “I who speak to you am he.” Jesus, who is the Word of God will explain everything to us. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/109 "2008-12-02T20:45:20Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I don’t know the in’s and outs of many faiths but do have some idea. The first one by itself I believe will eliminate most faiths. if by no work required you mean that you don’t have to adhere to dietary laws, or give confession (goodbye catholic church), or go to church regularly, or adhere to the commandments, then you’ve stripped down Christianity to the bare minimum and it reflects the apathetic half-hearted Christianity that permeates America today. I’d go so far as to say that you’re not “Christian” anyway and that your claim to a personal relationship with Jesus is a cop-out insurance to placate a fear of mortality. if by no work required you’re generalizing the basic tenement of Christianity to be the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your own personal savior, the struggle of placing Jesus above common sense would be actually quite onerous if you’re the type that places a great premium on retaining your common sense. Asking me, and the other non-believer dopers to sacrifice all the evidence that overwhelmingly prove contrariwise to “take your word for it” is obviously more “work” than we all can handle. I see the basic breakdown of believing and nonbelieving to be analogized nicely through the creationist/non-creationist argument because one side calls for blind faith and the other has stacks of evidence and arguments that prove otherwise. In starting the thread, I was just wondering if there was a way to compromise between choosing blind faith over common sense, and I have found little evidence of such. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/110 "2008-12-02T20:50:21Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > OK. Is that the same sort of answer you’re lilkely to give on _any_ matter concerning geology, paleontology, origins, cosmology, etc? I think my posting history will show that if I believe God has revealed a hidden truth I will post it as such. If I don’t know and feel nothing of God was revealed I don’t want to speculate, though sometimes I do fall to the flesh and speak words without knowledge. Do you know Einstein’s theory of relativity? Lets just say you would say ‘I don’t know’ here. Does that mean that’s the answer for any other thing you are asked about? We talk about what we know about, it is OK to say I don’t know for things we don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/111 "2008-12-02T20:55:08Z")
What I’m trying to get to is this: After how much preparation does it become permissible to start examining physical evidence and drawing reasoned conclusions from that evidence - you implied earlier that it should not be done without first focusing on spiritual matters. How long does it typically take to produce a scientist that way? Do you know many who have undergone the process? How productive are they in their fields? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/112 "2008-12-02T20:55:20Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The Word was total and complete before the creation of the world. No rules were changed, just more revealed. By the Koran, right? Since it came after the Bible and NT. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/113 "2008-12-02T21:39:37Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God is in total control, this can not happen outside His will. Again no plan of man can succeed against the Lord. Okay, so we’ll take these two premises as given, based on your posts: 1. God loves us, and wants us to be with him in heaven. 2. Nothing in the universe can subvert God’s will. Given these two premises, how is it that anyone is ever not saved? ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/114 "2008-12-02T21:53:14Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Okay, so we’ll take these two premises as given, based on your posts: > > 1. God loves us, and wants us to be with him in heaven. > > 2. Nothing in the universe can subvert God’s will. > > Given these two premises, how is it that anyone is ever not saved? Simple. Some(perhaps most, depends on the citeria) people are destined to go to hell. Of course, anyone whose read the OT knows that God is big into Tough Love_CoughDelugeCough_ ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/115 "2008-12-02T22:01:29Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God is in total control, this can not happen outside His will. Again no plan of man can succeed against the Lord. But surely, say, my neighbour could up and decide to kill me now; if God intervenes to thwart that plan, surely he is taking away that neighbour’s free will, at least partially? And if not - if God will ensure that not only will I at some point recieve his grace, assuming I continue to be open to it, but that I will live to see it, does that mean from the point I begin to be open to it and the point God decides I am ready (or I fall from the ideal), I am functionally immortal? > [@](#): > > The Bible, or scriptures are a physical representation of the Word. The Word is spiritual and speaks to our heart by God’s Spirit, when the scriptures are read and we hear with our ears. God weight the heart of man, not the works of man. As long as the attempt of the translation of His Word is honest He can use it to speak to our heart. Then I suppose the question is; what must be taken into account for a translation to be honest? ---
**Author:** ![OffByOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/45deac/32.png) [@OffByOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OffByOne)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/116 "2008-12-02T22:02:58Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I see two problems with the Omphalos argument: > > Firstly, it’s very often used by people who will in almost the same breath claim that there is solid scientific evidence for a young universe. You can’t have it both ways. > > Secondly, if the old universe, the tree of common descent, etc, is an elaborate and perfect fiction, permeating the entire set of physical evidence, then scientists are not being at all dishonest in studying and describing that evidence. “an elaborate and perfect fiction” The same people who believe that our universe is only about 6000 years old are the same people who believe that God doesn’t lie. Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/117 "2008-12-02T22:07:58Z")
> [@OffByOne](#): > > “an elaborate and perfect fiction” > > The same people who believe that our universe is only about 6000 years old are the same people who believe that God doesn’t lie. > > Which is it? Well, technically, fiction isn’t taken as a lie. Shakespeare’s reputation isn’t as a huge and extensive liar because of all that nonsense about fairies and storms. In general, I would say for something to be a lie it would have be both suggested to be the truth and to be deliberately deceptive. IANAChristian, nor a supporter of that particular argument, but I think God having created a fiction and still not lie aren’t _necessarily_ contradictory. It could quite easily be some tortured logic, though. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/118 "2008-12-02T22:23:07Z")
[quote=“pancakes3, post:109, topic:474949”] if by no work required you mean that you don’t have to adhere to dietary laws, or give confession (goodbye catholic church), or go to church regularly, or adhere to the commandments, then you’ve stripped down Christianity to the bare minimum and it reflects the apathetic half-hearted Christianity that permeates America today. I’d go so far as to say that you’re not “Christian” anyway and that your claim to a personal relationship with Jesus is a cop-out insurance to placate a fear of mortality./quote] A few things here - Salvation is absolute, there is no way we can earn it, it is a free gift of God. If we had to earn it then the cross was not sufficient and neither was Jesus’ efforts. So yes you can accept Jesus as your savior then live like the devil, but if Jesus calls you (as He is your Lord), you will face stern discipline if you continue in your ways. It is possible at least for some to withstand the discipline, called shipwrecking your faith, but you will be saved. - No (few) church(s) is (are) perfect, the Lord is OK with that, but will try to correct it, see Revelation 2 and 3 to see the Lords comments to the churches and what is wrong and right about them. - I have found that the various demoniations have different aspects of truth mixed in with man made rules. The RCC, since you mentioned them, is very good IMHO at the Lord Supper, reproduction/ respect for life, but bad IMHO about putting burdens on the people and inflicting them with guilt and keeping the people apart from the Lord. - We are not under the law, but grace. The law and it’s curse has been nailed to the cross. This does not mean that we don’t adhere to some restrictions, just that it is prompted by the Lord. Personally the Lord prompted me to fast, which I did, just water. I did not know why at the time, but in His strength I was not really hungry at all, though I did have the feeling that ’ I could eat’, nor did the lack of caffeine bother me. Both would have been a big issues if I did it according to man made rules. - There is a difference between people who call themselves Christians - who may or may not know the Lord, people who know the Lord and believe and those who know the Lord and follow Him. > [@](#): > > if by no work required you’re generalizing the basic tenement of Christianity to be the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your own personal savior, the struggle of placing Jesus above common sense would be actually quite onerous if you’re the type that places a great premium on retaining your common sense. Asking me, and the other non-believer dopers to sacrifice all the evidence that overwhelmingly prove contrariwise to “take your word for it” is obviously more “work” than we all can handle. I agree, I don’t even want you to take my word for it, but to relay my experience coming to Jesus. Jesus is the one who proves common sense wrong, not me. Believe me on this however, God can make your wisest moments in your life seem like such foolishness, your common sense seem like the most destructive aspect you have. I say believe me on this because it is man reasoning with God, God is going to win. > [@](#): > > I see the basic breakdown of believing and nonbelieving to be analogized nicely through the creationist/non-creationist argument because one side calls for blind faith and the other has stacks of evidence and arguments that prove otherwise. In starting the thread, I was just wondering if there was a way to compromise between choosing blind faith over common sense, and I have found little evidence of such. Though it starts with blind faith it does not stay there, but God provides evidence and pieces of the puzzle that start to reveal what really is and tear down the illusion put forth by non-believers. How this happens is you start to be able to listen to God, and God proves Himself totally true and faithful each and every time, you learn to trust Him, this cycle continues as trust builds and you take bigger and bigger leaps of faith, each and every time God comes through. As He reveals more and more, totally true you trust Him in what He says in thing like creation. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/119 "2008-12-02T22:28:43Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > What I’m trying to get to is this: After how much preparation does it become permissible to start examining physical evidence and drawing reasoned conclusions from that evidence - you implied earlier that it should not be done without first focusing on spiritual matters. > > How long does it typically take to produce a scientist that way? Do you know many who have undergone the process? How productive are they in their fields? God can lead someone into science, and as part of his work for the Lord he will pursue that line of study, as such he is to do the work as if he is working directly for the Lord, and the Lord is providing his paycheck. So in terms of science, there should be really no difference, but they should be productive (called fruitful) in their interactions with others within their work, nudging people to the Lord and/or away from other gods. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/120 "2008-12-02T22:30:20Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > By the Koran, right? Since it came after the Bible and NT. The Koran is a admitted revision. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949.md?page=7)