# Will all real creationists please stand up? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2008, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949 "2008-11-29T18:38:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/121 "2008-12-02T22:35:45Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Okay, so we’ll take these two premises as given, based on your posts: > > 1. God loves us, and wants us to be with him in heaven. > > 2. Nothing in the universe can subvert God’s will. > > Given these two premises, how is it that anyone is ever not saved? My understanding is if we really want to have nothing to do with God, God will allow that. Also we are made in a way that Jesus just has to love us, as such I think we had to be made to be right on the borderline of rebellion. It establishes the relationship that we realize we need Him by our own free will submit to Him and He Loves us, empowers us and even gives us His name. (this is reflected in the relationship between man and wife) As for what type of created being actually go to Hell and/or outer darkness, and why God made them that way that they would end up there, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/122 "2008-12-02T22:43:47Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My understanding is if we really want to have nothing to do with God, God will allow that. So, then, in fact, a plan of man _can_ succeed against God’s will. If it’s God’s will that **Revenant Threshold** not believe in Him until 2010, but **RT** decides that, as there is no God, he should just go ahead and kill himself, **RT** will never receive knowledge and faith of God’s existence, and is completely screwed, theologically speaking. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/123 "2008-12-02T22:45:08Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The Koran is a admitted revision. So is the NT. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/124 "2008-12-02T22:46:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God can lead someone into science, and as part of his work for the Lord he will pursue that line of study, as such he is to do the work as if he is working directly for the Lord, and the Lord is providing his paycheck. So in terms of science, there should be really no difference, but they should be productive (called fruitful) in their interactions with others within their work, nudging people to the Lord and/or away from other gods. What would you say to the notion of God leading someone _out of young-earth creationism_? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/125 "2008-12-02T22:47:22Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > But surely, say, my neighbour could up and decide to kill me now; if God intervenes to thwart that plan, surely he is taking away that neighbour’s free will, at least partially? Yes we don’t have absolute free will, but w/i the limits God has established, your neighbor may not be able to kill you. > [@](#): > > And if not - if God will ensure that not only will I at some point recieve his grace, assuming I continue to be open to it, but that I will live to see it, does that mean from the point I begin to be open to it and the point God decides I am ready (or I fall from the ideal), I am functionally immortal? I believe this is absolutely true, unless you try to short circuit God’s will for your life: > [@](#): > > Luke 4:12 > Jesus answered, "It says: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ " This was to Satan’s temptation about that very issue You may be interested in > **[Bishop "Earthquake" Kelley - Heaven Testimony](http://www.freecdtracts.com/testimony/bishop_earthquake_kelley.htm)** The first video in particular. My life has had very similar patterns to what Earthquake Kelly has experienced, the video representation of spirits and angels match almost exactly to my personal experience, including enemy powers of astral projection which I have experienced , his view of Hell I believe is accurate, though I have had a experience with outer darkness, not Hell. Here you can see divine protection and how God will save His people, though it may be very very unpleasant. > [@](#): > > Then I suppose the question is; what must be taken into account for a translation to be honest? The condition of the heart while making it, which includes trying to preserve His meaning as He wrote it (don’t add or subtract) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/126 "2008-12-02T22:51:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, then, in fact, a plan of man _can_ succeed against God’s will. If it’s God’s will that **Revenant Threshold** not believe in Him until 2010, but **RT** decides that, as there is no God, he should just go ahead and kill himself, **RT** will never receive knowledge and faith of God’s existence, and is completely screwed, theologically speaking. Again RT may not be able to kill himself, but if he can it will sadden God, but He will allow it as this choice was made available to RT. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/127 "2008-12-02T22:54:44Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So is the NT. No the NT says the OT stands. It just reveals another path is available, the one of grace. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/128 "2008-12-02T22:58:31Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > What would you say to the notion of God leading someone _out of young-earth creationism_? Romans 8: > [@](#): > > 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. And Philippians 3:15 > [@](#): > > All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. If they are a follower I would trust God to lead them. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/129 "2008-12-02T23:07:38Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Again RT may not be able to kill himself, but if he can it will sadden God, but He will allow it as this choice was made available to RT. Right. So we’ve established that the Lord’s plans _can_ be subverted by the will of man. Now, the part where this gets rocky for God is that you’ve said that he has a plan for everyone to come to Him, and that it will only happen in His time. So, say He has marked down in His celestial calendar that the manifest truth of His existence and benevolence will be revealed to **Revenant Threshold** on March 5th, 2012. But **Revenant Threshold** , dejected at the prospect of spending his life in a Godless universe, steps in front of a bus on April 9th, 2010. Not only has God’s plan been subverted, but **RT** has died in a state of sin (being an unbeliever and a suicide) specifically because God was taking His own sweet time in getting around to putting the Faith into him. Which somewhat subverts the first premise of my previous post: if God really loved **RT** and wanted **RT** to be with Him in heaven, He would have moved His fat ass a little sooner and shown **RT** the light before his unfortunate encounter with the 8:15 Crosstown. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/130 "2008-12-02T23:08:37Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > By the Koran, right? Since it came after the Bible and NT. and then the Book of Mormon I guess, as well as others of less notoriety. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/131 "2008-12-02T23:21:01Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes we don’t have absolute free will, but w/i the limits God has established, your neighbor may not be able to kill you. Ah ok, that makes sense. > [@](#): > > I believe this is absolutely true, unless you try to short circuit God’s will for your life: Interesting. Would it be fair to say that, just as God works with the constraints that we have in terms of free will to prevent my untimely death (again assuming I don’t myself fall from the ideal), will I similarly be protected from the more unpurposed potential dangers? For example, my neighbour not only will be prevented from killing me purposefully, but also from driving down a street if it meant that I would be run over accidentally by him? And, likewise, am I protected from the more natural dangerous phenomena - God will intervene to ensure I am not killed by earthquake, hurricane, or tsunami (not that those things are particularly common in London anyway ;))? Thanks for the link; i’ll be sure to give that video (and the page) a lookover. > [@](#): > > The condition of the heart while making it, which includes trying to preserve His meaning as He wrote it (don’t add or subtract) But surely, if our imperfectness means that we cannot fully understand his meaning, and it is only through him acting through us that we can truly preserve that meaning, then we’re left with a paradox? We cannot fully understand and preserve the meaning without God’s aid; in order to recieve this aid, we must honestly attempt to preserve it, which requires we understand it; and we go around again. Since we cannot fully understand what it is we attempt to preserve, there must be at least some flaw in our understanding, and thus our attempts cannot be honest. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/132 "2008-12-02T23:21:37Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > No the NT says the OT stands. It just reveals another path is available, the one of grace. “Another path” sounds like a pretty drastic change, to me. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/133 "2008-12-03T00:14:08Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > “Another path” sounds like a pretty drastic change, to me. He revealed the other path, but that path was always there. Abraham lived by faith, the Law didn’t even exist. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/134 "2008-12-03T00:23:53Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The term ‘holy’ is very unique and refers to one of God’s attributes. Using it for anything else, such as the holy book of Satan is a misuse of the term and for that matter blasphemy. Sorry if I chose the wrong word. Substitute sacred writings or whatever words you prefer and my point remains. Words that different religions consider revered inspired instructions from God or the religions founder. > [@](#): > > Yes, anything that leads us away from Jesus and His glorification is against our best interest and of the enemy, or at least the flesh of man. If we’re actually living as Jesus asked us to live, with sincere loving kindness to our fellow man, then it may be that we are glorifying him by spreading and sharing that love. In fact Jesus teaches this. > [@](#): > > It is not by reiterating “Lord, Lord,” that you will enter the kingdom of heaven, but by doing the will of my Father who is in heaven. > [@](#): > > This is my commandment: that you love one another as I have loved you! There is no greater law, and there is no greater love manifest than the act of giving up one’s life for a friend. > [@](#): > > The fruit of people’s lives will reveal the life they have chosen to live. > [@](#): > > Then the righteous will answer in amazement: “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you; or thirsty and give you drink? When did we shelter or clothe you? Did we ever care for you when you were ill, or visit you in prison?” > > The King will reply: “Truly, inasmuch as you have done such things for the least of my brothers and sisters, you have done the same for me.” note in the last verse the righteous didn’t know by helping the needy they were following Jesus. They were doing it out of a sincere loving heart. > [@](#): > > Bold mine, here you ignore the power of God to reveal Himself and His Word to you. Right now you may see contradictions and conflicts, but as He provided understanding the contradictions disappear, and the reason for conflicts become apparent and the truth is revealed. This is the work of God, not man. I’m not ignoring it. I know many people have had profound experiences while reading the Bible. My own experience is that same type of experience can happen in lots of different environments. I’m suggesting that profound experience is more related to the sincere heart and mind of the seeker than is is any external tool. A Christian can sense the spirit and feel a sense of unity and love, expanded understanding, while reading something in the New Testament. A Buddhist may feel a sense of enlightenment, unity and understanding while meditating on a particular Buddhist passage. In both examples it is the spiritual condition of the heart and mind of the seeker that allows them to be taught. Make no mistake, I revere the Bible and the teachings of Jesus but my goal is to look at it for what is is aside from man’s traditions about it. I’ve read several articles that were supposed to explain the apparent conflicts and contradictions of the Bible. So far they have all fallen far short of their goal using the same type of assumptive logic you have. If the spirit has provided you or others with something that makes the contradictions disappear and the reasons for conflicts apparent as the truth is revealed I wish some one would explain it to me or write a decent book about it. > [@](#): > > Funny how people claim that since earth can support life despite the odds, it must have done it since here it ise, but when God puts scriptures in a single book, which makes total sense, a odd’s on favorite, you try to discredit it. Since it is in a single book is proof that it is. Friend this makes no sense at all. Seeking for the truth concerning the Bible is not trying to discredit it. It’s placing the truth above mans tradition as God asks us to do. My question is simple. Who says it was ever God’s intention to have a particular collection of books be the authoritative final collection of his written Word? The answer I’ve come to in my own seeking is that this is man’s tradition. If you can show me anything that indicates otherwise I welcome the input. How is it that if the spirit spoke to man in generations past and men tried to record that experience to share with others, it now makes total sense and is the odds on favorite that it no longer happens. How is it that without a single meaningful passage indicating it was God’s plan we at some point have this compilation it’s the odds on favorite that it is God’s plan. Yes we have this valuable book, a compilation of writings. We also know there were many other writings held as scripture in early Christianity. We now have some of them. It isn’t a question of whether the Bible exists, it obviously does. It’s a question of giving it or any writings a more authoritative and important place in our seeking the truth than they should have. Truth over tradition as I’ve said. What makes sense to me and seems more consistent is that it is the sincere heart and mind of the seeker that the spirit responds to, regardless of culture, race, or which book we happen to be reading. Love is love, kindness and compassion are kindness and compassion and the labels we attach to categorize things are for our own purposes not God’s. > [@](#): > > Actually there is, and it appears in the very last chapter of the very last book: I’m afraid not. This was written by one author referring to his writing rather than the Bible , since it didn’t exist. It also contradicts your claim about God protecting his word. Issuing this warning is consistent with free will in that it indicates man could add to or take away from the book. Now you might make the leap that God planned these words to be the in the last book of his planned compilation {which you haven’t shown was ever his plan} but you’d have to explain all the scriptures written after Deuteronomy. > [@](#): > > Deuteronomy 4:2 > You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. That verse in Rev doesn’t indicate it was God’s plan to have the Bible as we have it without playing fast and loose with logic in an attempt to bolster that assumed belief. > [@](#): > > Scriptures talk about these false teachings. The Holy Spirit is more then capable of sorting them out, and for that matter most require works for salvation and are identified as false on that basis IIRC. false teachings? according to who? The Bible speaks of other letters written by Paul to Corinth and Laodiceans 1 Corinthians 5:9 and Colossians 4:16. Wouldn’t we like to have these books or did they contain false teachings from Paul? There are lots of other examples. One can assume the books we have are the ones God decided were the best ones, but once again, that’s twisting logic to support an assumed belief that is a tradition. > [@](#): > > Yes, our free will has limits, and one such is we can’t change His Word. Another such limit may be the speed of light. This simply doesn’t match what Biblical scholars tell us about the scriptures. Some of them Christian scholars. We have thousands of copies of the NT either whole or partial. No two are exactly alike. Some contain significant differences. That’s simply a fact which indicates man can and did change the scriptures. IMHO that only makes sense when you consider free will. God will allow man the free will to torture and murder our fellow man but not the free will to alter written words? That very inconsistent. > [@](#): > > Again God is the only one who can do this and He is willing to do this for you. He’s willing to do it for anyone and everyone right? And still Christians who invite the spirit into their hearts don’t agree with each other. I think that teaches me something about the nature of man’s relationship to God. > [@](#): > > While I don’t recall of a verse that states: “The Lord will put all His Scripture in one book, that book will be translated to many languages, and in the English language that book will be called The Bible”. I do know that God desires us to have a complete copy of His Word, easy to obtain, and very low cost. He wants it available and complete for everyone. I’d settle for something a lot less specific. Something consistent with what’s written in the books we have in the Bible. There isn’t anything. > [@](#): > > My own personal experience, I was actually held captive in 2 places for the Gospel, both times I prayed for a copy of His Word and both times it was given to me without me asking. That’s a great story but says nothing about the discussion at hand. > [@](#): > > It’s a good start, it continues: > Jesus, who is the Word of God will explain everything to us. > [@](#): > > 12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth well, someone will. I’d like to repeat that seeking the truth about what the Bible is and what it isn’t is not an attempt to diminish or discredit it. I hold it in very high esteem as a teaching and study tool for anyone. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/135 "2008-12-03T00:28:51Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Ah ok, that makes sense. Interesting. Would it be fair to say that, just as God works with the constraints that we have in terms of free will to prevent my untimely death (again assuming I don’t myself fall from the ideal), will I similarly be protected from the more unpurposed potential dangers? For example, my neighbour not only will be prevented from killing me purposefully, but also from driving down a street if it meant that I would be run over accidentally by him? And, likewise, am I protected from the more natural dangerous phenomena - God will intervene to ensure I am not killed by earthquake, hurricane, or tsunami (not that those things are particularly common in London anyway ;))? I think it would be fair to say that in general and apply to most people, though there may be cases where the Lord has finished trying to call one, and has no use for that person anymore on earth and will just save them at the end. > [@](#): > > Thanks for the link; i’ll be sure to give that video (and the page) a lookover. But surely, if our imperfectness means that we cannot fully understand his meaning, and it is only through him acting through us that we can truly preserve that meaning, then we’re left with a paradox? We cannot fully understand and preserve the meaning without God’s aid; in order to recieve this aid, we must honestly attempt to preserve it, which requires we understand it; and we go around again. We had this conversation before. There will always be believers who has done the work before we come to Jesus, the Lord will send them to help guide us during the transition. > [@](#): > > Since we cannot fully understand what it is we attempt to preserve, there must be at least some flaw in our understanding, and thus our attempts cannot be honest. Here again is where God steps in, using our imperfectness to make perfection. God knows we are not perfect, He does not want us to try to be perfect. It is also the difference between the text of the scriptures which may (and I say do) have transcription errors and the Word. God has the ability to have you ignore mistakes, to take you away from them and use other scriptures to speak the Word into your heart as He wants. Again going on personal experience, there was a Psalm I was reading, God spoke to me and had me go to the Lexicon and transliterate it myself. There was a alternate meaning, equally as valid a translation but for some reason man translated it differently. Now I don’t know if the Bible is accurate, my transliteration is accurate or both, but it shows how God works. Even if there are errors, when they are relevant He will point them out, and prompt us to do a bit of work for a wonderful moment of discovery that I praised Him for. If that Psalm was not needed for me to understand I’m sure I would have just passed right by it in thought, even if I read it there would be no Word spoken to my heart. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/136 "2008-12-03T00:31:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **kanicbird** > > - I have found that the various demoniations have different aspects of truth mixed in with man made rules. I have found that to be true of all denominations and all religions, and virtually all mankind. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/137 "2008-12-03T13:14:29Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I have found that to be true of all denominations and all religions, and virtually all mankind. True. This is why we are to ‘test the spirits’ compare what is said against the Word, so we may discern the truth spoken and what is not of God. God will indicate what He wants you to do and when. A example is from the RCC, a holy day of obligation (hdoo), that the church mandates that the people attend. There is no such thing in scriptures and He has shown me (for me) they can be ignored when it is done by a man made rule. This happened to me, not for a hdoo, but Sunday worship, where I wanted to go, but the Holy Spirit gave me these verses as I slept: # > [@](#): > > Hosea 6:6 > For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. And > [@](#): > > Matt 5:23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. Meaning worship is a act of sacrifice, and that is the gift at the alter. By these God was speaking to me don’t go to church, repair a broken relationship instead, which I did. OTOH God has instructed me to attend worship at other times, what can be considered a personal hdoo, but that was from God, not man. But even for those who observe hdoo’s God can use that too, it is the condition of the heart, they are trying to follow God, and God may have them follow man made rules in the process. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/138 "2008-12-03T13:51:32Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Here again is where God steps in, using our imperfectness to make perfection. God knows we are not perfect, He does not want us to try to be perfect. Are you sure? > [@](#): > > Matt 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. > [@](#): > > It is also the difference between the text of the scriptures which may (and I say do) have transcription errors and the Word. God has the ability to have you ignore mistakes, to take you away from them and use other scriptures to speak the Word into your heart as He wants. > > Again going on personal experience, there was a Psalm I was reading, God spoke to me and had me go to the Lexicon and transliterate it myself. There was a alternate meaning, equally as valid a translation but for some reason man translated it differently. Now I don’t know if the Bible is accurate, my transliteration is accurate or both, but it shows how God works. Even if there are errors, when they are relevant He will point them out, and prompt us to do a bit of work for a wonderful moment of discovery that I praised Him for. If that Psalm was not needed for me to understand I’m sure I would have just passed right by it in thought, even if I read it there would be no Word spoken to my heart. Here’s an example that allows me to explain my point. I’m not trying to discredit or minimize the importance of the Bible. In all sincerity, I think it’s a wonderful study tool and has been an important part of my own spiritual journey beginning with my time as a Christian. Over the years my beliefs have changed and I’ve some to see that the source of inspiration, teaching and enlightenment is that living spirit within us. There’s still a lot to understand but I see it as our connection to God the source of all knowledge. The passages that support this concept are numerous. > [@](#): > > James 1:5 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. Gog grants wisdom to all who ask. That seems to fit with the concept of God loving all men equally. to support this we have > [@](#): > > Matthew 7:8 > For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Another I’ve already mentioned > [@](#): > > John 4:24 > God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” and > [@](#): > > John 16:13 > However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; Over and Over again in the Bible we see that God sees the true intent of a person. Beyond what we give lip service to and even beyond what we are consciously aware of. > [@](#): > > Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ IMHO that means any person seeking the truth regardless of the limits of human language and the details of culture and tradition, church synagogue, temple or mosque, mountain top or laboratory, will find truth. As you said before, “aspects of the truth mixed in with man made rules.” We are still learning and limited. The journey continues. Trusting in those spiritual principles, our ability to seek and find the truth, our ability to connect with God, the source, we don’t need to elevate any writings above all others. We can study the Bible and other books with faith that a sincere heart seeking the truth will connect with that guiding spirit and ultimately, the truth will become apparent. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/139 "2008-12-03T14:00:15Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > True. This is why we are to ‘test the spirits’ compare what is said against the Word, so we may discern the truth spoken and what is not of God. God will indicate what He wants you to do and when. > > A example is from the RCC, a holy day of obligation (hdoo), that the church mandates that the people attend. There is no such thing in scriptures and He has shown me (for me) they can be ignored when it is done by a man made rule. This happened to me, not for a hdoo, but Sunday worship, where I wanted to go, but the Holy Spirit gave me these verses as I slept: > > # > > And > > Meaning worship is a act of sacrifice, and that is the gift at the alter. By these God was speaking to me don’t go to church, repair a broken relationship instead, which I did. > > OTOH God has instructed me to attend worship at other times, what can be considered a personal hdoo, but that was from God, not man. > > But even for those who observe hdoo’s God can use that too, it is the condition of the heart, they are trying to follow God, and God may have them follow man made rules in the process. I understand. I try to be aware of the inner voice when it comes to how to spend my time and energy. It is a condition of the heart and discipline can be a struggle at times. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949/140 "2008-12-03T14:27:02Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Sorry if I chose the wrong word. Substitute sacred writings or whatever words you prefer and my point remains. Words that different religions consider revered inspired instructions from God or the religions founder. I may consider some of them satanically or demonically inspired, as such they may contain truths presented in ways that are deceptive. > [@](#): > > If we’re actually living as Jesus asked us to live, with sincere loving kindness to our fellow man, then it may be that we are glorifying him by spreading and sharing that love. In fact Jesus teaches this. Yes, but acting in the Holy Spirit. We simply can not do the work he wants on our own, He must work through us. God is Love, it is God that must Love through us. We can not Love one another as Jesus Loves, but we are required to Love as He Love, the only way to reconcile this is if He Loves through us, which would have to be through His Spirit. > [@](#): > > note in the last verse the righteous didn’t know by helping the needy they were following Jesus. They were doing it out of a sincere loving heart. To > [@](#): > > “Truly, inasmuch as you have done such things for the least of my brothers and sisters, you have done the same for me.” The question is who is Jesus’ brothers and sisters. He defines it here [QUOTE=Matthew 12:50] For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." [/QUOTE] The reason is those who do the will of the Father have Jesus living inside them. By helping them out you ARE doing those things (giving food, comfort, etc.) to the Lord Himself. > [@](#): > > I’m not ignoring it. I know many people have had profound experiences while reading the Bible. My own experience is that same type of experience can happen in lots of different environments. I’m suggesting that profound experience is more related to the sincere heart and mind of the seeker than is is any external tool. A Christian can sense the spirit and feel a sense of unity and love, expanded understanding, while reading something in the New Testament While it’s true that all creation is to speak of and point to and praise the Creator and God can and does use other things to speak to us, His Word is a prime way of doing it. > [@](#): > > A Buddhist may feel a sense of enlightenment, unity and understanding while meditating on a particular Buddhist passage. Going on personal experiencing at one dark time in my life I was involved with worship of the enemy, I assure you that they can provide this sense, including intense feelings of extacy, but at _ **extreme** _ cost. They take you away from the true God, making your trip to Him very long and hard. They will do anything they can to do this, even offer ‘power’ and or ‘wisdom’ and the like. > [@](#): > > In both examples it is the spiritual condition of the heart and mind of the seeker that allows them to be taught. Seek and you shall find. The spirit world is real, more real IMHO then our physical one. There are spirits empowered to lead the seeker. > [@](#): > > Make no mistake, I revere the Bible and the teachings of Jesus but my goal is to look at it for what is is aside from man’s traditions about it. I’ve read several articles that were supposed to explain the apparent conflicts and contradictions of the Bible. So far they have all fallen far short of their goal using the same type of assumptive logic you have.\*\* If the spirit has provided you or others with something that makes the contradictions disappear and the reasons for conflicts apparent as the truth is revealed I wish some one would explain it to me or write a decent book about it\*\*. Bold mine. My WAG is you will never get this from a person. It is what God is willing to reveal to you personally. Something He leads you to figure out, and when the pieces come together it is a glorious moment, like a vale removed from your mind. As for the traditions taught and handed down by man, they IMHO get in the way. We are to come to Him as a infant learns from a parent. > [@](#): > > My question is simple. Who says it was ever God’s intention to have a particular collection of books be the authoritative final collection of his written Word? I’d have to go with my own experience, I asked God about other ‘inspired’ writings, He said to go with the Bible as a copy of His Word. > [@](#): > > How is it that if the spirit spoke to man in generations past and men tried to record that experience to share with others, it now makes total sense and is the odds on favorite that it no longer happens. How is it that without a single meaningful passage indicating it was God’s plan we at some point have this compilation it’s the odds on favorite that it is God’s plan. In asking this question you have to assume that there is a God who wants His Word known and available. It is the odds on favorite because of intelligent design IMHO, it is designed by a all knowing/powerful being to accomplish just that, which would seem to indicate a single source, which is the Word and is God. You can also get this through pattern reconition. The pattern is also held up from spiritual (there is one true source, God), and physical (the scriptures should also be one true source). There are patters from large to small all throughout scriptures that point to God at all times. The Hebrew day, from sundown to sundown is the pattern of our lives. We are created by God, and we know God in the beginning (twilight), that light fades and we live in darkness (night) following the ways of man, learning their ways. The the sun (Son of God) dawns on us, and we follow in His ways and walk in light till the end of this physical life. This is also the pattern of the Bible. We start at a moment with God (Adam and Eve), then start our human journey, The Flood IMHO is delivery (birth), where our world radically changes. We start to hear of God, we seek people who claim to know God (Prophets) and depend on them for our instructions from God, we as children are typically taught the Law (10 commandments). At some point of our lives Jesus is born to us. At this point many believers have a great incredible time of fellowship as Jesus (typically through one of His believers) walks with us and we are shown amazing things. After which time that person is removed and we walk in the Spirit, free’ed from the curse of the law and given grace. > [@](#): > > What makes sense to me and seems more consistent is that it is the sincere heart and mind of the seeker that the spirit responds to, regardless of culture, race, or which book we happen to be reading. Love is love, kindness and compassion are kindness and compassion and the labels we attach to categorize things are for our own purposes not God’s. I would say love is not Love. The love of man is not the same as the Love of God acting through the believer. > [@](#): > > I’m afraid not. This was written by one author referring to his writing rather than the Bible , since it didn’t exist. It also contradicts your claim about God protecting his word. Again you are making the assumption that the books of the Bible are works of man, not a complete work of God before the world was created. The author is God Himself, just written down by His servants, in this case Saint John. > [@](#): > > Issuing this warning is consistent with free will in that it indicates man could add to or take away from the book. Now you might make the leap that God planned these words to be the in the last book of his planned compilation {which you haven’t shown was ever his plan} but you’d have to explain all the scriptures written after Deuteronomy. There is also a warning of this type in Proverbs 30:6, “Do not ad to His Words or He will rebuke you and call you a liar” If man made passages were slipped in, would not God have rebuked us and called us a liar in a way that those passages would be removed? > [@](#): > > That verse in Rev doesn’t indicate it was God’s plan to have the Bible as we have it without playing fast and loose with logic in an attempt to bolster that assumed belief. Single source does however. We are to go to Him and Him alone, the pattern would hold that His Word would be presented as single source. > [@](#): > > false teachings? according to who? The Bible speaks of other letters written by Paul to Corinth and Laodiceans 1 Corinthians 5:9 and Colossians 4:16. Wouldn’t we like to have these books or did they contain false teachings from Paul? Do we have those books? Did Paul even do things in his own effort? It’s trust in God that He preserved His Word. > [@](#): > > There are lots of other examples. One can assume the books we have are the ones God decided were the best ones, but once again, that’s twisting logic to support an assumed belief that is a tradition. I’d say it’s trust in God and listening to Him above man. > [@](#): > > This simply doesn’t match what Biblical scholars tell us about the scriptures. Some of them Christian scholars. We have thousands of copies of the NT either whole or partial. No two are exactly alike. Some contain significant differences. That’s simply a fact which indicates man can and did change the scriptures. Lets look at the Word vs scriptures. There are 3 versions of the 10 commandments in scriptures, all different. But though the text may differ, the Word, spoken to our heart is consistent across all 3. > [@](#): > > IMHO that only makes sense when you consider free will. God will allow man the free will to torture and murder our fellow man but not the free will to alter written words? That very inconsistent. Free will, to me, is not what most people consider free will. It is like a chose your own adventure book, or a text computer adventure game. We follow a set path to a certain point and have a decision to make, go to the mountains - go to page 134 or through the forest Go to page 28 - then you read what you do from there till the next decision. There are far fewer choices then we think. Man’s inhumanity to man is usually a result of a sinful choice in the past, which that person becomes a slave to their sin and that sin dictates the future choices of paths, perhaps negating the trip to the mountain mentioned above. I don’t believe it’s a open invite to do everything. Or to put it another way, you may think you can murder your boss, but the truth is it may be physically impossible, though everything you perceive indicates you have free will to do so. Our paths IMHO are very limited, including what exactly we can do with the copy of the Word. > [@](#): > > He’s willing to do it for anyone and everyone right? And still Christians who invite the spirit into their hearts don’t agree with each other. I think that teaches me something about the nature of man’s relationship to God. As it should, and it should continue to refine that as we work out our faith. (His Word does address this) > [@](#): > > I’d like to repeat that seeking the truth about what the Bible is and what it isn’t is not an attempt to diminish or discredit it. I hold it in very high esteem as a teaching and study tool for anyone. If you hold it in high esteem, why not follow His instruction in it as a way to find all truths? Perhaps you believe you are doing exactly that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-all-real-creationists-please-stand-up/474949.md?page=8)