# Will anyone from the Bush administration be tried **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374 "2005-12-06T16:39:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/61 "2005-12-07T16:36:55Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > ISTM that one of the things lawyers typically do for their clients is apply their knowledge of the law to defend the position of their client. ISTM that if you were inclined against the use of torture, you might assiduously look for some hook by which to hang those who practice it. Instead, you present an obstacle to such prosecution, claiming outright that there’s no law against torturing detainees, therefore there is no possible way to prosecute Bush & Minions. Frankly, I don’t think you are neutral on this issue. If your theory is correct, you have only to offer the law you claim can be used to prosecute the President. We can then look at the law, and see if it applies to what you contend the President has actually done. Your post above is essentially the fallacy of _argumentum ad ignorantiam_: “Because I don’t know, we should conclude I am right.” It’s for the proponent of a claim to offer evidence in support of his claim. The OP of this thread claims Bush will avoid prosecution for his crimes by reason of his pernicious influence and willingness to pardon crimes. I say Bush will avoid prosecution because, thus far, no one’s pointed out a law under which he could be charged. If you disgree, then point out the law. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/62 "2005-12-07T16:48:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If your theory is correct, you have only to offer the law you claim can be used to prosecute the President. We can then look at the law, and see if it applies to what you contend the President has actually done. > > Your post above is essentially the fallacy of _argumentum ad ignorantiam_: “Because I don’t know, we should conclude I am right.” Nope. The only point I am making is that I do not believe you are operating from a position of neutrality here. Mayhaps someone with more awareness of int’l law will come along and offer up a rule. In the meantime, there’s always hope for extraordinary rendition and transport of Bush & Minions to some less benighted land where torture IS illegal. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/63 "2005-12-07T16:57:15Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Are you saying that people who believe the US has engaged in torture are having fantasies? If so, have another glass of kool-aid – you and Condoleeza Rice are obviously enjoying the hell out of it! No…you need to re-read what I said again. I never denied that US personnel had engaged in torture. I believe that was pretty conclusively established at AG. What I said was that the charges against Bush seem to me to be pure fantasy, as thus far no one on your side seems to be able to come up with what law exactly Bush is supposed to have violated…as others more knowledgable than myself have already stated. -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/64 "2005-12-07T17:00:30Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > In the meantime, there’s always hope for extraordinary rendition and transport of Bush & Minions to some less benighted land where torture IS illegal. Again, IANAL but…how would this help? Unless Bush (or I guess US personnel) tortured someone from this happy land, or tortured somone while within this happy land, how exactly would they prosecute ‘Bush & Minions’? Oh, I suppose they could drum up a kangaroo court or some such…but legally by what right would they be able to charge and try Bush et al for ‘crimes’ committed in other countries against other people. -XT ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/65 "2005-12-07T17:02:26Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Who, specifically, in this thread is advancing that argument? I just wanted to verify that the people on the legal argument side also agreed that torture is WRONG. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/66 "2005-12-07T17:04:48Z")
> [@ccwaterback](#): > > I just wanted to verify that the people on the legal argument side also agreed that torture is WRONG. Well, for myself it would depend on how you defined ‘torture’ exactly. In general I think torture is both wrong and more importantly ineffective. I wouldn’t be willing to make a blanket statement though that ALL ‘torture’ is wrong and ineffective before seeing exactly how we are defining the term. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/67 "2005-12-07T17:07:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If your theory is correct, you have only to offer the law you claim can be used to prosecute the President. We can then look at the law, and see if it applies to what you contend the President has actually done. Out of interest, let’s say you were in the position of having/wanting to prosecute the President for Guantanamo or related matters. What would you do? Can you think of anything that would have a snowball’s chance in Hell? > [@](#): > > How outraged would you be if an American was prosecuted upon his return to the US for using marijuana in Amsterdam, where it’s legal? That’s actually the law here in Sweden. If they do a drug test on you here and you test positive, that’s a crime no matter where you actually used the drug. You can come back from Amsterdam, have the drug test done two inches inside the border, and be prosecuted if you test positive. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/68 "2005-12-07T17:16:49Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Again, IANAL but…how would this help? Unless Bush (or I guess US personnel) tortured someone from this happy land, or tortured somone while within this happy land, how exactly would they prosecute ‘Bush & Minions’? Oh, I suppose they could drum up a kangaroo court or some such…but legally by what right would they be able to charge and try Bush et al for ‘crimes’ committed in other countries against other people. > > -XT Surely it is conceivable that somewhere there is a happy land that has laws that says all torture everywhere is illegal, and that if anyone within its borders can be shown to have committed or ordered anyone tortured anywhere, they go to jail. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/69 "2005-12-07T17:33:07Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > No…you need to re-read what I said again. I never denied that US personnel had engaged in torture. I believe that was pretty conclusively established at AG. What I said was that the charges against Bush seem to me to be pure fantasy, as thus far no one on your side seems to be able to come up with what law exactly Bush is supposed to have violated…as others more knowledgable than myself have already stated. > > -XT I think here is the position that I and many others are at boils down to this: We know that torture is wrong. We know that torture is generally illegal. That is if Billy Bob Felon goes out and abducts Suzy Creamcheese and tortures her severely because she’s not Aryan enough to suit him, there would be all sorts of charges filed against him, and one of them would be some variation of “Assault” for the torture. We would be very surprised to hear a DA say, “We can get him for the kidnapping and the hate crime aspect, but we can’t get him for pulling her front teeth out and breaking her fingers because that’s torture, and torture per se is not illegal in the US.” We know the UCMJ forbids soldiers to torture prisoners of war. We know the Geneva Convention forbids torture. So we kinda figure that somewhere out there, there must be some kind of treaty, law or regulation that says nobody can legally torture anyone else. Maybe some oddball treaty, convention, etc. “The Aroostok War Treaty EXPRESSLY forbids torture for all, my friends.” Now, we recognize that this MIGHT not be the case, but still, considering how universally despised torture is, we tend to think it probably IS the case. And still fresh in our minds is all the legal twisting and squirming that the right underwent to convince us all that outing a covert CIA agent was not treason, not even illegal except under certain highly specific circumstances, and not even a very bad thing to do all things considered, so we’re kinda … cool … to legal arguments about immoral activities. I’m sure you understand. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/70 "2005-12-07T17:34:18Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > In the meantime, there’s always hope for extraordinary rendition and transport of Bush & Minions to some less benighted land where torture IS illegal. Can we set the record straight on this-- are you in favor of this practice or not? Sounds to me like you are wishing that Bush be punished in accordinance with one of the practices you want him punished for. Some people might call that hypocritical… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/71 "2005-12-07T17:38:47Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Can we set the record straight on this-- are you in favor of this practice or not? Sounds to me like you are wishing that Bush be punished in accordinance with one of the practices you want him punished for. Some people might call that hypocritical… Reread **Evil’s** post. He wrote “illegal,” not “legal.” ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/72 "2005-12-07T17:38:51Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If an American killed a someone in France, wouldn’t you expect the US to extradite the American to France for trial, assuming he had returned to the US? If he were still in France, would your country extradite him to the US for trial? No. France doesn’t extradite its citizens. It prosecutes them if it’s a crime both in France and in the country where it has been commited (and in the case of sexual offenses against minors at least, even if its not a crime in the country where it has been commited). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/73 "2005-12-07T17:40:03Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Well, for myself it would depend on how you defined ‘torture’ exactly. In general I think torture is both wrong and more importantly ineffective. I wouldn’t be willing to make a blanket statement though that ALL ‘torture’ is wrong and ineffective before seeing exactly how we are defining the term. > > -XT Can we at least agree that “torture” begins long, **long** before the point of major organ failure? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/74 "2005-12-07T17:40:07Z")
To address the OP, the ACLU is trying to sue former CIA director Tenet: > [@](#): > > [ACLU Files Landmark Lawsuit Challenging CIA’s “Extraordinary Rendition” of Innocent Man](http://www.aclu.org/natsec/emergpowers/22207prs20051206.html) > > The American Civil Liberties Union today announced the first ever lawsuit against former CIA director George Tenet challenging the CIA’s abduction of a foreign national for detention and interrogation in a secret overseas prison. The lawsuit was filed on behalf of Khaled El-Masri, an innocent German citizen victimized by the CIA’s policy of “extraordinary rendition.” We’ll see how that lawsuit goes. The article doesn’t specify the particular statute that was allegedly violated. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/75 "2005-12-07T17:42:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Reread **Evil’s** post. He wrote “illegal,” not “legal.” I assumed that was a typo. Otherwise, the post makes no sense (which is, I suppose, a distinct possibility). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/76 "2005-12-07T17:51:59Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I assumed that was a typo. Otherwise, the post makes no sense (which is, I suppose, a distinct possibility). I honestly don’t understand what it is about that post that makes no sense to you. I am saying I hope Bush & Co. might someday be transported to a country where torture is illegal, if it is indeed not illegal here, and tried for that crime. That’s pretty straightforward wrt torture. I also have my problems with extraordinary rendition – Kim Il Jong is a big fan of the practice – but I would consider it a bit of poetic justice is Bush & Minions were subjected to it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/77 "2005-12-07T17:56:16Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I honestly don’t understand what it is about that post that makes no sense to you. I am saying I hope Bush & Co. might someday be transported to a country where torture is illegal, if it is indeed not illegal here, and tried for that crime. That’s pretty straightforward wrt torture. I also have my problems with extraordinary rendition – Kim Il Jong is a big fan of the practice – but I would consider it a bit of poetic justice is Bush & Minions were subjected to it. OK. Sorry I misread your post. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/78 "2005-12-07T18:00:40Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > No. France doesn’t extradite its citizens. It prosecutes them if it’s a crime both in France and in the country where it has been commited (and in the case of sexual offenses against minors at least, even if its not a crime in the country where it has been commited). I misread \*\* John Mace \*\* question. France prosecutes crimes when the victim or the perpetrator is a french citizen and when the crime has been commited in France except when the perpetrator has already been tried by a foreign court for the same crime (there are sme subtleties, of course, but that’s the general principle). So the american citizen commiting a crime in france would be arrested and tried if he wee still present in france, and I assume France would request his extradition if he wasn’t tried in the USA (which apparently would be the case). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/79 "2005-12-07T18:32:22Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > No. France doesn’t extradite its citizens. It prosecutes them if it’s a crime both in France and in the country where it has been commited (and in the case of sexual offenses against minors at least, even if its not a crime in the country where it has been commited). What?!? If a French citizen commits murder, then hops on a plane to New York, France does… what? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374/80 "2005-12-07T18:34:29Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > To address the OP, the ACLU is trying to sue former CIA director Tenet: > > We’ll see how that lawsuit goes. The article doesn’t specify the particular statute that was allegedly violated. I think torture might well give rise to a civil cause of action. Unlike the criminal law, we don’t really need an explicit “do not torture” statement written down anywhere to find civil liability. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-anyone-from-the-bush-administration-be-tried/334374.md?page=5)