# Will "BHENGAZI-GATE" screw up Hitlery's chances in 2016? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 9, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888 "2013-05-09T13:53:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/241 "2013-05-12T08:06:37Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > His orders were carried out by a few men who disobeyed orders to not go help. Unaware of the Presidential command, I’m sure. His orders were followed by the dept of defense, read the timeline. They didn’t have the intelligence to send additional forces into the area immediately. The General in charge of the region made this decision. > [@](#): > > You are citing the military account as authoritative when it is not. So your bullshit blogs and opinion pieces are more authoritative than the Defense Department? Honestly, does failing utterly feel good to you or something? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/242 "2013-05-12T08:08:44Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > His orders were followed by the dept of defense, read the timeline. They didn’t have the intelligence to send additional forces into the area immediately. The General in charge of the region made this decision. If this had been Pearl Harbor, he wouldn’t have sent planes up in the air. Why hasn’t he been demoted? There’s an attack, you send reinforcements. This isn’t rocket science, and the guys on the ground in Tripoli knew what they had to do. They were told not to do it. > [@](#): > > So your bullshit blogs and opinion pieces are more authoritative than the Defense Department? No, but witnesses in Congressional hearings who were there might be. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/243 "2013-05-12T08:11:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I guess you forget the Abu Ghraib investigation. The problem, of course, is that Abu Ghraib was actually a scandal, unlike Behghazi. > [@](#): > > You also don’t seem to regard the fact that the administration doesn’t want these people talking to Congress as another insignificant detail. They sure aren’t acting like they have nothing to hide. You’re Gish Galloping now, just stick to one topic at a time, kay? Have you conceded that you’re wrong about the stuff we were just talking about? Now that that’s settled, one of those dudes got a call, from the SoS office, asking him to have a lawyer present while being questioned. And his recollection apparently is different from the SoS staffer. So not exactly the burning destruction you think it is. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/244 "2013-05-12T08:18:56Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If this had been Pearl Harbor, he wouldn’t have sent planes up in the air. Why hasn’t he been demoted? Because the people involved understand the situation better than you and don’t have the same pathetic need for Obama to be wrong in all instances. > [@](#): > > There’s an attack, you send reinforcements. This isn’t rocket science, and the guys on the ground in Tripoli knew what they had to do. They were told not to do it. The guys on the ground in Tripoli got there after the battle was over. The FAST team was deployed when they had the tactical intel necessary to deploy them. That you, _internet dipshit Adaher_, doesn’t find it appropriate is meaningless. An actual general, a man who knows more about deploying forces than you ever will, thought this was the correct action. I don’t care if you think that in your ignorance you know better than professionals, go ahead. Just don’t use that as a point of argument. > [@](#): > > No, but witnesses in Congressional hearings who were there might be. Or they might have a limited perspective because they were hiding under desks hoping that a mortar didn’t blow them into bits. Again, no diplomatic installation (not a consulate) can repel mortar fire. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/245 "2013-05-12T08:30:35Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Because the people involved understand the situation better than you and don’t have the same pathetic need for Obama to be wrong in all instances. Your argument was that they didn’t understand the situation enough to deploy forces. > [@](#): > > The guys on the ground in Tripoli got there after the battle was over. That’s kinda the point. The ones who arrived during the battle were acting on their own. > [@](#): > > Or they might have a limited perspective because they were hiding under desks hoping that a mortar didn’t blow them into bits. > > . The witness in question, Hicks, was in Tripoli. Special forces were going to get on a plane to Benghazi but were ordered to stay put. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/246 "2013-05-12T09:58:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Your argument was that they didn’t understand the situation enough to deploy forces. You don’t see any problem with sending a handful of soldiers to fight a hostile force of unknown number, with unknown armament, and unknown allegiance, _at night_, within the sovereign territory of another nation which hasn’t granted the US permission to deploy military forces? Suppose those soldiers had turned out to be horribly outgunned, and instead of four deaths we were looking at forty? Suppose there’d been Libyan army forces among the attackers and the Libyan government saw the incursion as an act of war? Suppose the Libyan government finds out American soldiers are marching through the streets of a major city and calls in artillery? Hindsight is 20/20, and unlike in video games, you can’t hit F9 and try again if things don’t go your way. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/247 "2013-05-12T09:59:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Can you cite that, please? That is my impression as well, since I could not imagine anyone would encourage him to leave the somewhat secure premises of an embassy for some backwater consulate, but couldn’t find any direct verification. > > So this isn’t “cite! you lying sack!” but “cite, please, so i can use it too.” Yes, I’d like some indication of that as well. I can’t imagine why someone would be complaining to State that they had inadequate security and choose to stay there. If nothing else, it put everyone else with him at risk as well. The only reason that I know of for his being there, is that he was meeting a Turkish diplomat. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/248 "2013-05-12T10:14:00Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Again, you are misinformed and pushing nonsense based on your partisan need for Obama to be wrong. > > His orders were carried out to the best of the ability of the military. So you’re just utterly wrong and promulgating a delusional and dishonest version of events. WHAT!!! The military didn’t do anything during the attack, despite the president’s “order” to do something. The guys that did help were acting against orders. It would have taken 3 hours for aircraft to reach Benghazi from Italy, and the attack went on for longer than that. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/249 "2013-05-12T10:31:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You don’t see any problem with sending a handful of soldiers to fight a hostile force of unknown number, with unknown armament, and unknown allegiance, _at night_, within the sovereign territory of another nation which hasn’t granted the US permission to deploy military forces? > > Suppose those soldiers had turned out to be horribly outgunned, and instead of four deaths we were looking at forty? Suppose there’d been Libyan army forces among the attackers and the Libyan government saw the incursion as an act of war? Suppose the Libyan government finds out American soldiers are marching through the streets of a major city and calls in artillery? > > Hindsight is 20/20, and unlike in video games, you can’t hit F9 and try again if things don’t go your way. The President gave an order. He didn’t say, “Wait until we know more” he said, “protect our people”. Couldn’t be clearer. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/250 "2013-05-12T10:35:31Z")
Which is beside the point. When our people come under attack, we send help. Every single time, if help is within reach. When our boys in Afghanistan come under fire, we don’t wait for intelligence to respond, we send in the damn air support and/or reinforcements. “We’re under mortar fire!” is pretty solid intelligence that an attack is taking place. It doesn’t take hours to assess that situation unless a) the general in charge was incompetent, or b) the President’s guidance on what to do was as clear as mud. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/251 "2013-05-12T10:47:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The President gave an order. He didn’t say, “Wait until we know more” he said, “protect our people”. Couldn’t be clearer. Again, your pathetic desire to squish everything into something Obama had done wrong is controlling your ability to think. Focus on the sound of my text. Focus. Do you think the people we’d send in to get them are _our people_ too? Jesus fuck, you’re not making this hard. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/252 "2013-05-12T10:48:59Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > WHAT!!! The military didn’t do anything during the attack, despite the president’s “order” to do something. The guys that did help were acting against orders. > It would have taken 3 hours for aircraft to reach Benghazi from Italy, and the attack went on for longer than that. Read the timeline. They didn’t have the intel necessary to send people in for hours. Read the timeline and get back to me. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/253 "2013-05-12T10:52:01Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Which is beside the point. When our people come under attack, we send help. Every single time, if help is within reach. When our boys in Afghanistan come under fire, we don’t wait for intelligence to respond, we send in the damn air support and/or reinforcements. > > “We’re under mortar fire!” is pretty solid intelligence that an attack is taking place. It doesn’t take hours to assess that situation unless a) the general in charge was incompetent, or b) the President’s guidance on what to do was as clear as mud. Reread Smapti’s excellent post. Just because it seems simple to you, doesn’t mean it is. It probably means that your ignorance is giving you illusory confidence in the simplicity of the situation. You’re not a general. You’re just and angry, misinformed person who is in a rage because of the daily chum of lies and ignorance that you’ve been fed. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/254 "2013-05-12T11:07:22Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Read the timeline. They didn’t have the intel necessary to send people in for hours. > > Read the timeline and get back to me. Like I said, BOOM!! is pretty solid intel that help is needed. It’s the lamest excuse ever, and frankly I’ve never heard it used until now. However, if they insist on using it that should prompt some questions. Such as: 1. What precisely did they need to know in order to respond to the requests for immediate assistance? 2. When they did belatedly send assistance, had they found out what they needed to know? 3. Are there any other situations, in our entire history, where we didn’t respond to an attack before finding out more? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/255 "2013-05-12T11:11:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Like I said, BOOM!! is pretty solid intel that help is needed. It’s the lamest excuse ever, and frankly I’ve never heard it used until now. Again, reread Smapti’s post. Refute it point by point. Are you too mixed up by your ideological devotion to reason? Specifically address each point: > [@](#): > > You don’t see any problem with sending a handful of soldiers to fight a hostile force of unknown number, with unknown armament, and unknown allegiance, at night, within the sovereign territory of another nation which hasn’t granted the US permission to deploy military forces? > > Suppose those soldiers had turned out to be horribly outgunned, and instead of four deaths we were looking at forty? Suppose there’d been Libyan army forces among the attackers and the Libyan government saw the incursion as an act of war? Suppose the Libyan government finds out American soldiers are marching through the streets of a major city and calls in artillery? Don’t be a coward. If you face reality, you’ll realize how worthless and unable to withstand scrutiny your ideology is. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/256 "2013-05-12T11:13:29Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Reread Smapti’s excellent post. > > Just because it seems simple to you, doesn’t mean it is. It probably means that your ignorance is giving you illusory confidence in the simplicity of the situation. > > You’re not a general. You’re just and angry, misinformed person who is in a rage because of the daily chum of lies and ignorance that you’ve been fed. No, I’m not a general, and even if I was, I wasn’t there. However, the decision to wait for intelligence before acting in the face of an attack on a US consulate does merit the asking of questions. This is normal even when everything goes right. It’s called an after action report. Now we do have the military’s after action report, essentially. Now we need to find out why there’s a discrepancy between what they say and what people who wanted to hightail it to Benghazi say. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/257 "2013-05-12T11:21:19Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Specifically address each point: > Don’t be a coward. If you face reality, you’ll realize how worthless and unable to withstand scrutiny your ideology is. The military did send help, as is pointed out. They just did it way too late. Note that this is the opposite of what happened in Mogadishu. The Blackhawks went down, help was sent. The only delay was a 20 minute delay caused by miscommunication between two units. By contrast, hours went by before help was dispatched to the consulate. So I ask again, what information did they need to know, and did they get it when they went? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/258 "2013-05-12T12:17:20Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > WHAT!!! The military didn’t do anything during the attack, despite the president’s “order” to do something. The guys that did help were acting against orders. > It would have taken 3 hours for aircraft to reach Benghazi from Italy, and the attack went on for longer than that. No, the attack didn’t “go on for three hours”. The claim that some sort of all-night siege occurred is a blatant lie. There were _two_ separate attacks; one which lasted about half an hour and was successfully repelled by local police (it was during this attack that Stevens died), and another which occurred about five hours later and lasted about an hour, during which the two contractors were killed. It would not have been possible for forces in Italy to reach Libya between the period when either fight started and ended, and in any event they wouldn’t have been able to refuel because those resources weren’t available. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/259 "2013-05-12T12:22:40Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > So I ask again, what information did they need to know, and did they get it when they went? Who is the enemy? How many of them are there? How well-armed are they? Are they part of a larger organization? Do they have ties with the government? Is the Libyan government OK with US military forces entering its territory to engage in combat action? How will local police/civilians respond to a US incursion? How many casualties are acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888/260 "2013-05-12T12:36:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Looks like this is coming to its Whitewater-esque endgame. So it’s time for an ill-considered impeachment that will boomerang to bite the Republicans in the butt in 2014? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bhengazi-gate-screw-up-hitlerys-chances-in-2016/657888.md?page=14)