# Will bigots cost Obama the presidency? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2008, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503 "2008-09-21T00:40:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2008, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/81 "2008-09-21T23:41:46Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Of course not, but that’s not what you said, you said ‘there’s a difference between trying to get somebody into a tent and trying to keep them out.’ I’m sure your meaning was clear to you but it wasn’t to me. You’ve never heard the metaphor of “tent” used in refernce to social equality before. Sorry, I wasn’t trying to be obscure. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2008, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/82 "2008-09-21T23:44:44Z")
Black voters have a clear and unassailable record of voting for white Democrats. So the “black voters are just as racist as white voters” argument is fundamentally moronic. Bill Clinton got the overwhelming majority of the black vote. So did Jimmy Carter. In this years New York primary, Hilary Clinton got the majority of the black vote, not Obama. There is not a single instance, in a statewide general election, where white voters supported a black candidate, to the same degree that black voters routinely support white candidates. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2008, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/83 "2008-09-21T23:45:47Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > Agreed. > > From [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) (it was convenient) > > –noun > > 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others. > 2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. > 3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. > > Diogenes is either a) Falsely forcing #3 as the only definition, or b) Omitting “usually” from the first definition. None of these definitioons are applicable. Blacks are not voting for Obama because they believe whites are inferior, nor do they favor a system of government favoring suchj a system, nor does their vote involve hatred or intolerance. See. Looking up the definition clears things right up. Now everyone should understand why it’s fatuous to say that black support for Obama is “racist.” That statement shows a now clearly demonstrated ignorance of the meaning of the word. ---
**Author:** ![BrainFireBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@BrainFireBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainFireBob)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2008, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/84 "2008-09-21T23:47:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Blacks voting for Obama includes none of those motivations. I win. False. Black voters who identify with Obama and are voting for him because his race will determine his outlook are guilty of #1. Furthermore, you have attempted to change the nature of the subdebate, \since the point under discussion was whether your claim that voting for someone due to their race was not racism was true or false.\ Your defense, that “look it up, it’s not defined that way”- is false. Therefore, your argument was disproven. Have a nice day! ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2008, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/85 "2008-09-21T23:53:39Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > False. Black voters who identify with Obama and are voting for him because his race will determine his outlook are guilty of #1. > > Furthermore, you have attempted to change the nature of the subdebate, \since the point under discussion was whether your claim that voting for someone due to their race was not racism was true or false.\ > > Your defense, that “look it up, it’s not defined that way”- is false. > > Therefore, your argument was disproven. > > Have a nice day! You haven’t in any way demonstrated that black voters are supporting Obama because of his race. Black voters consistently vote Democratic in presidential elections. You could put that straw to better use feeding a horse, or mulching a garden. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2008, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/86 "2008-09-21T23:56:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Blacks voting for Obama includes none of those motivations. I win. blacks voting for The Black Guy do. ---
**Author:** ![Avumede](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/avumede/32/7235_2.png) [@Avumede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avumede)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2008, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/87 "2008-09-21T23:57:17Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > False. Black voters who identify with Obama and are voting for him because his race will determine his outlook are guilty of #1. Did you read the definition? 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others. If blacks think that a black candidate will represent them better than a white candidate does (and I’m not claiming this is true, but since you believe it, let’s just take it for the sake of argument). So, where is the believe in the **inherent** difference between races? I haven’t heard there is one yet, no more so than if a Arizona voter votes for McCain, it’s probably not because they believe Arizonans are inherently superior. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2008, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/88 "2008-09-21T23:58:32Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > There is not a single instance, in a statewide general election, where white voters supported a black candidate, to the same degree that black voters routinely support white candidates. But it’s quite a leap to dismiss that as racism. The Democrats have a history, at least since the 1960’s, of supporting civil rights for all citizens, while the Republicans gratefully took over the bigot vote the Dems discarded. It would be more accurate to say that the black minority overwhelmingly votes for Democrats, who they see as having their interests much more in mind than do the Republicans, while the white population is divided. But the basis for decision is \*not \*racial identification, but view of government and its relationship with the people. If it were primarily racial, why wouldn’t you see black GOP candidates (they do exist) run away with the black vote when running against white Democrats? ---
**Author:** ![BrainFireBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@BrainFireBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainFireBob)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/89 "2008-09-22T00:03:21Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > You haven’t in any way demonstrated that black voters are supporting Obama because of his race. Black voters consistently vote Democratic in presidential elections. > > You could put that straw to better use feeding a horse, or mulching a garden. And crying “strawman” to try and deflect criticisms of your own are not convincing. We are discussing those voting for Obama because of his race in this context. We are not attempting to prove that blacks are only voting for him because of his race, but the question of voting _for_ because of race, and whether it is any less racist than voting _against_ for the same reason. Considering the definition of racism, it is racist, making Dio’s quibble irrelevant. Now, a case is open to be made that positive racism is OK, or that it addresses the imbalance created by negative- all the arguments in favor of affirmative action, really. But that’s a separate line of argumentation that does not affect the truth value of this line of argumentation. I have not said that blacks will vote for Obama because of his race- although the supposition has as much, if not more traction, than the idea that these faceless hordes of racists will magically vote against Obama- we are discussing whether such voting would be racist. You are attempting, with this argument, to change what we are discussing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainFireBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@BrainFireBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainFireBob)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/90 "2008-09-22T00:06:31Z")
> [@Avumede](#): > > Did you read the definition? > > 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others. > > If blacks think that a black candidate will represent them better than a white candidate does (and I’m not claiming this is true, but since you believe it, let’s just take it for the sake of argument). So, where is the believe in the **inherent** difference between races? I haven’t heard there is one yet, no more so than if a Arizona voter votes for McCain, it’s probably not because they believe Arizonans are inherently superior. That he will inherently support their interests, or that their interests are inherently different, than those of other groups- and that this is, by implication, more important than any regional or other affiliate interests they have (ie, black people from Chicago have far more room for the identification than blacks in Alabama, whose interests may not align but whose racial identification is valued more highly- assuming race is their priority factor). ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/91 "2008-09-22T00:07:48Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But it’s quite a leap to dismiss that as racism. The Democrats have a history, at least since the 1960’s, of supporting civil rights for all citizens, while the Republicans gratefully took over the bigot vote the Dems discarded. > > It would be more accurate to say that the black minority overwhelmingly votes for Democrats, who they see as having their interests much more in mind than do the Republicans, while the white population is divided. But the basis for decision is \*not \*racial identification, but view of government and its relationship with the people. If it were primarily racial, why wouldn’t you see black GOP candidates (they do exist) run away with the black vote when running against white Democrats? I’m not arguing that white voting patterns are primarily defined by racism. Just that black voting patterns aren’t. Judging from the 2006 Ohio governors race, having a black candidate did help the Pubbies get twice the black vote they usually get. Blackwell got 40 % of the black vote where Republicans usually get 20 % or less. The white Democrat still won a substantial majority of the black vote. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/92 "2008-09-22T00:17:20Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > False. Black voters who identify with Obama and are voting for him because his race will determine his outlook are guilty of #1. No they aren’t, because they do not believe that his race makes him superior. Black support for Obama is not motivated by any of your cited defintions for “racism.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/93 "2008-09-22T00:18:39Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > blacks voting for The Black Guy do. No they don’t, as the cited definitions demonstrate quite definitively. ---
**Author:** ![BrainFireBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@BrainFireBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainFireBob)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/94 "2008-09-22T00:18:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No they aren’t, because they do not believe that his race makes him superior. Black support for Obama is not motivated by any of your cited defintions for “racism.” They don’t believe it makes him a superior candidate? No black person, anywhere? Your psychic skills amaze and impress. What this has evolved into is whether such a vote would be a racist action. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/95 "2008-09-22T00:19:25Z")
> [@](#): > > I have not said that blacks will vote for Obama because of his race- although the supposition has as much, if not more traction, than the idea that these faceless hordes of racists will magically vote against Obama- we are discussing whether such voting would be racist. No traction at all. (The horse will pull better if you feed him that straw.) No one’s suggesting “faceless racist hordes” as you hyperbolically put it. Poll data shows clearly that race is a concern for some white voters who would otherwise vote Democrat, and these voters will vote against Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/96 "2008-09-22T00:22:53Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > They don’t believe it makes him a superior candidate? No black person, anywhere? Your psychic skills amaze and impress. > > What this has evolved into is whether such a vote would be a racist action. Why don’t you take a remedial reading class and learn to read with comprehension. Black support for Obama is not based on a belief that black people are inherently, biologically superior to white people. That belief is necessary to the definition of “racism.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainFireBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@BrainFireBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainFireBob)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/97 "2008-09-22T00:23:25Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > No traction at all. (The horse will pull better if you feed him that straw.) > > No one’s suggesting “faceless racist hordes” as you hyperbolically put it. Poll data shows clearly that race is a concern for some white voters who would otherwise vote Democrat, and these voters will vote against Obama. Really? The poll data I’m seeing mainly cites those for whom race “is an issue”- this includes those voting for Obama because of his race. A fact conveniently ignored. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/98 "2008-09-22T00:24:44Z")
How many people for whom race is an issue, either way, do you think will say so to a pollster? And have you looked up what a “straw man” is yet? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/99 "2008-09-22T00:24:49Z")
Voiting because of race is not necessarily racist. Once more, voting to keep a group out is not the same as voting to get a group in. Voting for equality is not racist. ---
**Author:** ![BrainFireBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@BrainFireBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainFireBob)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/100 "2008-09-22T00:26:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why don’t you take a remedial reading class and learn to read with comprehension. Black support for Obama is not based on a belief that black people are inherently, biologically superior to white people. That belief is necessary to the definition of “racism.” Believing his race makes him a superior candidate _a priori_ does in fact imply such a belief. Given such voting occurs. Why don’t you learn to think before you open your mouth and type? You are the one defending the absolutist position requiring information far beyond what you’ll have to be true and claiming it as, effectively, divinely revealed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503.md?page=6)