# Will bigots cost Obama the presidency? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2008, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503 "2008-09-21T00:40:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/101 "2008-09-22T00:27:04Z")
> [@xanthous](#): > > Obama got [heckled](http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5j2B0SbafWmP8MdULXrPlL2tKrY9Q) at a rally in Florida the other day by a group of african americans who claim he is selling out the black community. I don’t know how widespread is the sentiment, nor do I know exactly what is its basis, but there is also that kind of stuff going on… Based on my personal experiences, very very very little. Hell, I got to talk to two overtly racist people in the past two days. Yay me. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/102 "2008-09-22T00:44:20Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > Believing his race makes him a superior candidate _a priori_ does in fact imply such a belief. No it doesn’t. It implies only a belief that he will be politically sympathetic to them. A belief which is reinforced by his expressed political positions. Belief that someone with a shared cultiral experience will be _sympathetic_ to that experience does not equal a belief in inherent biological superiority. **Stratocaster’s** comparison to Catholics liking Kennedy is quote analogous here, and I don’t think you’d try to argue that Catholics wanting a Catholic to do well is “racist.” > [@](#): > > Why don’t you learn to think before you open your mouth and type? You are the one defending the absolutist position requiring information far beyond what you’ll have to be true and claiming it as, effectively, divinely revealed. All I’m try to do is educate you and alert you to your own errors of assumption. You are the one taking an absolutist view that any consideration of race must be racist. ---
**Author:** ![BrainFireBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@BrainFireBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainFireBob)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/103 "2008-09-22T00:53:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No it doesn’t. It implies only a belief that he will be politically sympathetic to them. A belief which is reinforced by his expressed political positions. Belief that someone with a shared cultiral experience will be _sympathetic_ to that experience does not equal a belief in inherent biological superiority. **Stratocaster’s** comparison to Catholics liking Kennedy is quote analogous here, and I don’t think you’d try to argue that Catholics wanting a Catholic to do well is “racist.” > > All I’m try to do is educate you and alert you to your own errors of assumption. You are the one taking an absolutist view that any consideration of race must be racist. Dio, someday you’ll grasp how you actually are, apart from your self-image, and your head will explode. Good luck when the day dawns. You’ll need it. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/104 "2008-09-22T01:44:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No they don’t, as the cited definitions demonstrate quite definitively. Did you read definition #3? But you know no ones voting **for** Obama because of it, and anyway it would be different if they were, is that it? I remain unconvinced that there aren’t black people in America planning to vote for Obama because they’re racist ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/105 "2008-09-22T01:50:51Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Did you read definition #3? But you know no ones voting **for** Obama because of it, and anyway it would be different if they were, is that it? I remain unconvinced that there aren’t black people in America planning to vote for Obama because they’re racist Any attempt to apply definition #3 is refuted by the fact that blacks have overwhelmingly supported white candidates in the past and because – and this is significant – they initially supported Clinton over Obama. He had to prove himself to them on substance. He did not get their support on skin color alone. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/106 "2008-09-22T04:03:11Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > Agreed. > > From [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) (it was convenient) > > –noun > > 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others. > 2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. > 3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. > > Diogenes is either a) Falsely forcing #3 as the only definition, or b) Omitting “usually” from the first definition. Both are ignorant. > > Positive racism is still racism. So is positive racist action. > > EDIT: His didactic “LALALALA I can’t hear you no it’s not!” is bigotry, btw, a refusal to acknowledge, etc. Waitaminnit. None of those definitions supports the statement, “It is racist for African-Americans to prefer to vote for a black candidate.” ---
**Author:** ![A\_shameful\_cracka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@A\_shameful\_cracka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_shameful_cracka)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/107 "2008-09-22T04:12:44Z")
I know one person who normally would vote Democrat who will not vote for Obama because of his race, but he’s not going to vote for McCain instead, he’s just not going to vote…so I can see this hurting Democrats a little by reducing voter turnout in some regions, but I don’t think there’s many people who would have voted for a white Democrat who would vote for McCain out of racism. ---
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/108 "2008-09-22T04:43:42Z")
\*All this silly and ignorant argument about Obama’s race coming from folks who post under the banner of Fightng Ignorance. Incredible!! Barack Obama has a Black(dark-skinned African) father, and a White(light-skinned American) mother. He’s a man, an educated and ambitious man who believes he has much to offer the people of the US and the World. I agree with him. Some folks see him as Black(inferior), and won’t vote for him on that bases alone. Others see him as Black(competent and just as good as any other man regardless of skin color, and so will vote for him for that reason alone. Yet others, have risen above the ignorant definitions and insinuations of competency based on ethnic origin or skin color, and are desiring to choose their next president based on who they feel they trust to run the affairs of this country properly the next 4 years. That we’re still discussing skin color and competency/intelligence/ability in this breath is amazingly ignorant.\* ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/109 "2008-09-22T06:25:42Z")
> [@Avumede](#): > > I think there’s a big difference between “I want all presidents to be white” and “I do not want all presidents to be white”. > > One is exclusionary, one is inclusionary, which is what Diogenese was saying. And I think there is a moral difference between them, in as much as the former statement necessitates that one always chooses the white candidate, while the latter statement allows an array of candidates, including whites. I really fail to see the merit of deciding a political leader based on their race. Are you saying that an lesser qualified candidate should get support because of their race? For instance, did you vote for Al Sharpton or Carol Mosely Braun in the '04 primaries? And it isn’t inclusionary: it’s making an extrapolation of someone’s fitness for office based on their race. Which is no more or less a racist action than saying that McCain is a better candidate because he’s white. There are plenty of reasons to vote for Obama. Voting for him because he’s black isn’t one of them. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Voiting because of race is not necessarily racist. Once more, voting to keep a group out is not the same as voting to get a group in. Voting for equality is not racist. Just out of curiosity, how is your statement any different than a statement of a white racist who claims that he’s not voting to keep a black man out of office, but to make sure a white man gets in? I mean, after all, Bubba doesn’t want any Hispanics, Asians or Jews in office, either. He’s just trying to ‘include’ white politicians. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/110 "2008-09-22T06:30:14Z")
> [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > Just out of curiosity, how is your statement any different than a statement of a white racist who claims that he’s not voting to keep a black man out of office, but to make sure a white man gets in? I mean, after all, Bubba doesn’t want any Hispanics, Asians or Jews in office, either. He’s just trying to ‘include’ white politicians. White people are _already_ included. He’s trying to _exclude._ You can’t say that trying to keep an all white country club all white is inclusionary. Support for integration is not racist. There is no symmetry in this comparison. Give it up. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/111 "2008-09-22T07:17:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > White people are _already_ included. He’s trying to _exclude._ You can’t say that trying to keep an all white country club all white is inclusionary. Support for integration is not racist. > > There is no symmetry in this comparison. Give it up. Support for integration for its own sake isn’t racist. There’s perfect symmetry in this situation. Support for integration because there’s a qualified black canidate, or because there’s a specific benefit for having a black person do a job is one thing. Integration for it’s own sake makes no more sense than segregation. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/112 "2008-09-22T08:30:21Z")
Right, the argument is whether it is racist for blacks to support Obama based on skin color alone. Here’s the definition of racist from the Oxford English Dictionary Online. > [@](#): > > A. n. An advocate or supporter of racism; a person whose words or actions display racial prejudice or discrimination. Also in extended use: a person who is prejudiced against people of other nationalities. A person whose words or actions display racial prejudice or discrimination. A black person voting for Obama because he is black is clearly displayng racial discrimination. Or are you going to dispute the OED definition? (And basing lexicographical arguments on [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) is building on sand). ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/113 "2008-09-22T08:51:06Z")
The confusion here arises because the word _racism_ has a narrower definition than _racist_. OED Online again. [QUOTE racism The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. Hence: prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, esp. those felt to be a threat to one’s cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being; the expression of such prejudice in words or actions. Also occas. in extended use, with reference to people of other nationalities.[/QUOTE] Illogical perhaps, but OED reflects usage and as we all know usage and logic don’t always go togerher. To sum up, to discriminate on grounds of race is racist. It is not, however, rac_ism_. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/114 "2008-09-22T12:08:35Z")
My apologies for the triple post, mods, I just want to clarify something. The confusion I mentioned above also applies to me. I had assumed the broader discriminatory sense of _racist_ was also present in _racism_ but, as shown, OED gives no warrant for that. I was thus mistaken whenever I used the term _racism_ previously. I stand full square however behind _racist_ (in the sense of discriminating on grounds of race). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/115 "2008-09-22T14:12:46Z")
> [@BrainFireBob](#): > > Why don’t you learn to think before you open your mouth and type? You are the one defending the absolutist position requiring information far beyond what you’ll have to be true and claiming it as, effectively, divinely revealed. > [@BrainFireBob](#): > > Dio, someday you’ll grasp how you actually are, apart from your self-image, and your head will explode. Good luck when the day dawns. You’ll need it. Dial back on the heat, here. If you need to get insulting, take it to the BBQ Pit. (And watch it with those mixed metaphors; someone could get hurt.) **Diogenes** , claiming that “all” you are trying to do is “educate” someone about his or her own failings is doing nothing to keep this discussion on track, either. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/116 "2008-09-22T14:59:56Z")
_sigh_ It is incredible to me how a discussion on whether bigots may or may not cost Obama the election evolves into a discussion as to whether that damn black Man and black Woman is racist–and so rapidly. All I have to add is that there have been polls and recorded statements in some statements by certain misguided voters about their … less than savory… motivation for not voting for Obama, and I have yet to see this phenomenon regarding McCain. Perhaps I am not looking in the right places. I will also repeat comments made by other posters that black voters tend to vote heavily Democratic in years where the Democratic candidate has been white. It is apparent to me, then, where the burden of proof lies regarding accusations of black racism being a significant factor in voting choices. Let us say that yes, voting for a candidate only because of the tint of their skin cover, is decidedly suboptimal. Let us also view the demographics of the nation. Yes. It is possible that bigots could cost Obama the election. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/117 "2008-09-22T16:33:13Z")
How did the Democratic Primaries turn out? The voting was close… according to here: [http://maps.google.com/help/maps/elections/#primary\_results](http://maps.google.com/help/maps/elections/#primary_results) , Hillary got 1% more of the (raw popular) vote than Obama (H=48%, O=47%.) It has been mentioned in other threads that Hillary and Obama had very similar platforms. If I recall, much to-do was made of some Democratic voters in WV stating that they couldn’t support Obama because of his race. (Has one been made on a National level?) Did Hillary get as much as she did (nationwide) because of skin color? Was it feminism vs. race? Experience vs. non-experience? Name recognition? Actual issue differences? All of the above? I vote all of the above. I don’t know how many voters I get to accuse of racism, but I assume that a lot of other issues were also in play, and some of them may have influenced more voters. To cherry pick out one single cause, and blame the possibility of a lost election on that, is somewhat lazy thinking, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/118 "2008-09-22T19:43:32Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I think it likely. I know a few people who always vote Democratic who will not vote for Obama because it will make black people “uppity”. I am aghast, but not surprised. Are you making that up?! I mean, African-Americans have been “uppity” ever since the mid-'50s, when they were negroes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/119 "2008-09-22T19:58:10Z")
A conversation with somebody at the company I work for: Him: If Obama wins, he’s going to be for black people. He won’t be for us. Me: What does that mean? Him: He’s not going to be for white people. He’s going to be for black people." Me: What do you mean by “for?” Him: I don’t know. Just that he’ll side with the blacks over us. Me: Side in what way? Him: I don’t know. Just in general. He doesn’t like whites. Me: He IS half white. Him: Really Me: Yeah. His mother was white. Him: I didn’t know that. So do you think he’ll be for whites or for blacks? Me: I think he’ll be for Americans. Him: I think he’ll be for blacks. At this point, I had to go outside and beat my head against the hood of my car. There’s a whole lot of stupid out there. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503/120 "2008-09-23T00:12:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > A conversation with somebody at the company I work for: > > Him: If Obama wins, he’s going to be for black people. He won’t be for us. > > Me: What does that mean? > > Him: He’s not going to be for white people. He’s going to be for black people." > > Me: What do you mean by “for?” > > Him: I don’t know. Just that he’ll side with the blacks over us. > > Me: Side in what way? > > Him: I don’t know. Just in general. He doesn’t like whites. > > Me: He IS half white. > > Him: Really > > Me: Yeah. His mother was white. > > Him: I didn’t know that. So do you think he’ll be for whites or for blacks? > > Me: I think he’ll be for Americans. > > Him: I think he’ll be for blacks. This is a neat demonstration as to why “bi-racials” are so often called black in this country. A white mother doesn’t change the final analysis. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bigots-cost-obama-the-presidency/464503.md?page=7)