# Will Bush II be Regarded as a Great President? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2007, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093 "2007-04-29T22:16:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/41 "2007-04-30T04:17:31Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] The tax cuts are a short term benefit, for individuals if not the country. [/QUOTE] Could be – I suppose they were a pretty decent boon to the rich, but I didn’t notice enough extra money to make a difference on anything. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/42 "2007-04-30T04:23:18Z")
As far as prseidential comparisons go, I’ve been hearing that Bush may be the new Hoover. Just like Hoover’s presidency ensured 20 years of Democratic rule afterward, Bush’s presidency could do the same thing. If so, the liberals ought to be grateful to Bush. I can’t say I see any Roosevelts out there, though, except for MAYBE Gore, who says he’s not running. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/43 "2007-04-30T04:26:54Z")
I think he’ll go down as the president who completely and utterly fucked up one of the best chances in recent times to go down in history as a great President. A moderately decent president could have taken what Bush had to work with and come out of it looking fantastic. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/44 "2007-04-30T04:41:39Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam] I can’t say I see any Roosevelts out there, though, except for MAYBE Gore, who says he’s not running. [/QUOTE] [Will Al Gore be drafted?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=418818) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/45 "2007-04-30T07:40:32Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Compare this: “The buck stops here.” –Harry Truman. “I hope I – I don’t want to sound like I’ve made no mistakes. I’m confident I have. I just haven’t – you just put me under the spot here, and maybe I’m not as quick on my feet as I should be in coming up with one.” –George W. Bush [/QUOTE] I think a better comparision comes from the state of the union on 2003 (the same one where Bush lied to the American people on Iraq) [http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html) > [@](#): > > This country has many challenges. **We will not deny, we will not ignore, we will not pass along our problems to other Congresses, to other presidents, and other generations.** (Applause.) We will confront them with focus and clarity and courage. Oh, yes they will pass it, all the efforts of this lame duck administration are geared to pass the buck to other presidents. On the matter of investigations, Truman does clean Bush’s clock: Truman: [http://www.trumanlibrary.org/photographs/view.php?id=472](http://www.trumanlibrary.org/photographs/view.php?id=472) > [@](#): > > President Harry S. Truman is shown in 1942 at a session of the United State Senate’s special committee to investigate the national defense program, of which he was chairman. Pictured from left to right at the counsel table are James M. Mead, Senator from New York; Charles Patrick Clark, associate Chief Counsel; Senator Truman; and Owen Brewster, Senator from Maine. Pissing off military contractors, but making a general thank Truman later because his efforts then allowed more army divisions to be properly prepared for the big war. Bush: [http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/10/20061025.html](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/10/20061025.html) > [@](#): > > I know many Americans are not satisfied with the situation in Iraq. I’m not satisfied, either. And that is why we’re taking new steps to help secure Baghdad, and constantly adjusting our tactics across the country to meet the changing threat. But we cannot allow our dissatisfaction to turn into disillusionment about our purpose in this war. We must not look at every success of the enemy as a mistake on our part, **cause for an investigation** , or a reason to call for our troops to come home. We must not fall prey to the sophisticated propaganda by the enemy, who is trying to undermine our confidence and make us believe that our presence in Iraq is the cause of all its problems. Investigate corruption with the current military contractors? mmm, I know! I will give them a tax cut! :smack: Truman is really rolling in his grave. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/46 "2007-04-30T10:23:50Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] I think he’ll go down as the president who completely and utterly fucked up one of the best chances in recent times to go down in history as a great President. A moderately decent president could have taken what Bush had to work with and come out of it looking fantastic. [/QUOTE] Pardon a Brit for sticking his nose in. Given the situation in the ME I doubt very much that any US prez could have come up smelling of roses. IMO ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/47 "2007-04-30T10:53:36Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] By the way, Bill Clinton and Thomas Jefferson were both named Jefferson. [/QUOTE] Also, both of them ate french fries and fucked the help. Then again, Jefferson wasn’t a very good president, and though I didn’t care much for Clinton I don’t think he was a bad president. Marc ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/48 "2007-04-30T11:38:02Z")
That anyone would even ask the question dumbfounds me. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/49 "2007-04-30T11:41:04Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Yeah, His Belligerancy. Well, after reading the wikipedia on him, I’ll grant him some domestic accomplishments, and I’ve already admitted the territory thing. So he’s better than Bush, despite his war-mongering. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Wikipedia? There’s a much more [fun](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StTiCU_fqCg) source. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/50 "2007-04-30T11:43:18Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] That anyone would even ask the question dumbfounds me. [/QUOTE] Oh, I don’t know. There _are_ already books written about his many off-the-cuff sayings. And page-a-day calenders. And bumper stickers. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/51 "2007-04-30T12:53:50Z")
[QUOTE=carnivorousplant] Shit. I beg your pardon, but eloquence fails me on this subject. [/QUOTE] There’s no better way to say it, unless you want to totally redefine the word “great.” ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/52 "2007-04-30T12:59:44Z")
Hell, no. Not even if he dies in office. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/53 "2007-04-30T13:04:20Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Pardon a Brit for sticking his nose in. Given the situation in the ME I doubt very much that any US prez could have come up smelling of roses. [/QUOTE] Possibly. However, the WTC/Pentagon attacks garnered a significant amount of world sympathy (including throughout the MENA region, a few handsful of street partiers notwithstanding). There was very little opposition to the destruction of the Taliban–especially as the actual on-the-ground forces were perceived as Afghanis retaking their country. Had Bush gotten a genuine coalition of countries together to secure the Afghanistan countryside as peacekeepers and hunt for al Qaida while attempting to engage in the “nation building” that he scorned in Afghanistan and pretended to embrace in Iraq, I suspect that he would not have created the rallying point to recruit new terrorists that he so magnificently achieved in Iraq. Without the arm-twisting he applied to get smaller MENA nations to give lip-service to the very unpopular Iraq invasion, he would not have jeopardized the survival of nations like Jordan–nations that he has since begun supporting as anti-democratic authoritarian regimes that, even if they suppress their people long enough to get past the current crisis, will come back to haunt us in the way that many of our pet dictatorships have haunted us following the end of the Cold War. Had he not made his idiotic “Axis of Evil” speech, he would have been in a better position to use carrot-and-stick diplomacy to encourage Iran to continue its move toward a moderate government, rather than scaring the theocrats into disenfranchising the opposition political parties and reasserting absolute control. Without his invasion of Iraq and Rice’s not-so-veiled threats against Syria, that nation would have probably been more amenable to continuing its decade long negotiations with Israel to secure more stability in that region (reducing Syria’s belief that it needed to support Hezbollah). By demonstrating a measured response in Afghanistan instead of an idiotic neocolonial conquest in Iraq, I suspect that he would have reduced the ability of al Qaida and the Wahabbists to point to the Great Satan and persuade Muslims across the world that the U.S. and the West really are threats to Islam. Smellling of roses? Pehaps not, but perhaps smelling of daisies instead of dog turds. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/54 "2007-04-30T15:29:55Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Pardon a Brit for sticking his nose in. Given the situation in the ME I doubt very much that any US prez could have come up smelling of roses. IMO [/QUOTE] While **tomndebb** responded to this quite well, I was hoping to get some clarification. Which situation in the ME are you referring to, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/55 "2007-04-30T15:57:14Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] :dubious: Define ‘likely’…and what leads you to think this incredible statement is likely. [/QUOTE] Probably akin to how we remember Pearl Harbor, tho in a lot of ways actions after-the-fact bear few parallels. The point here is A) we are still too close to this event to perhaps give it proper perspective, but I suspect the tendency now is to overrate it, and B) compared to the other dangers out civilization faces, international terrorism isn’t much. Now if the essobees detonate a nuke over NY or something, THAT will have major implications. We recall the singular events, even if they are relatively insignificant; we tend to not think much about the longer term issues which take their sweet time in making their effects known (“Hey Thag, wall of ice closer today?”-Gary Larson\*). > [@](#): > > Perhaps…though I doubt it. I think future generations will understand quite well why nothing was done. We understand pretty well, for example, why whale oil was used as long as it was, why train travel died off in the US, and any number of other things after all. > > I think the reasons slavery was tolerated is pretty well understood from a historical perspective. Its folks who are generally ignorant of history who don’t understand the answer to that questions. I think it will be the same with questions about Global Warming in the future. People will understand quite well (and may be more sympathetic than you seem to assume) WHY a country like the US took the stance and action that they (we) did. In fact, it may be that our stance and actions (allowing private industries to figure out on their own that green is economically benificial) was actually a better response than to attempt massive regulation. Who knows? I don’t have a time machine…do you? 😛 > > -XT There will be one significant difference. Slavery’s persistence into the middle of the 19th century has relatively few ramifications today. Sure there’s residual racism (see Imus, Don) but in terms of how it affects our lives today the whats and whyfores of the 19th century Southern US culture exist mainly as a historical curiosity. With global warming what our leaders did (or didn’t do) this decade will most certainly be relevant to future generations, and they most certainly will be either puzzled and/or angry, and with good cause, over the path we chose. 9-11 killed 4,000 people; yes it was horrible but environmental degradation will be responsible for many many times the suffering. That anyone can question that now just proves my point about our procrastinating, passing-the-buck ways. **Frostillicus** listed a bunch of things Bush bungled, but 50-100 years from now nobody will remember Terry Schiavo or most of the other things he listed. However Bush’s inactions on global warming et al. will most certainly be remembered. Or they won’t because history will be over and our descendants will be living in caves. \*Yes I know we are losing glaciers now not gaining them. Beside my point. ---
**Author:** ![initech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/439d5e/32.png) [@initech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/initech)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/56 "2007-04-30T16:44:10Z")
Don’t kid yourself. Two steps to establish Bush as a Great President: - Significant improvements in the Middle East. This doesn’t have to be a result of the Iraq invasion. And “improvements” can be defined many ways. - A nice biopic that wins an Oscar, maybe ten years after his death. We’ve made bigger heroes out of similar idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/57 "2007-04-30T17:29:10Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m tring to think of what short term benefits there were – other than electoral ones for Republicans in 2004. I’m stumped. The deficit: Spending borrowed money is always fun, it’s repaying it that sucks. Saddam Hussein: Overthrowing him was a good thing. It’s been mostly downhill in Iraq since. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/58 "2007-04-30T17:32:16Z")
[QUOTE=initech] We’ve made bigger heroes out of similar idiots. [/QUOTE] I’m dying to know who these were. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/59 "2007-04-30T18:05:12Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] I’m dying to know who these were. [/QUOTE] George Armstrong Custer? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2007, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093/60 "2007-04-30T18:17:14Z")
[QUOTE=carnivorousplant] George Armstrong Custer? [/QUOTE] At least he got killed before he could run for President. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-bush-ii-be-regarded-as-a-great-president/402093.md?page=4)