# Will Central and South America become civilized again? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 27, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184 "2019-06-27T22:08:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/21 "2019-06-28T20:55:18Z")
My parents just came back from Panama City, Panama and have nothing but good things to say. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/22 "2019-06-28T21:30:59Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > My parents just came back from Panama City, Panama and have nothing but good things to say. The traffic sucks, but otherwise I like it.šŸ™‚ Panamaā€™s previous president, Ricardo Martinelli, is presently in jail for corruption. Perhaps the US will one day become equally civilized and apply the rule of law to everyone. šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/23 "2019-06-28T21:49:59Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Every time they do, the US funds rebels to undermine that government. Central America is in chaos because the US prefers to keep it in chaos. If the US ever becomes civilized, then Central America will probably follow. Thatā€™s been true in the past, but not currently. Iā€™m not aware of any significant insurgencies currently being funded by the US government in Latin America. Now the poverty in Guatemala and El Salvador _is_ partly the result of civil wars in the 1980s in which the US played a large role. On the other hand, Nicaragua currently has fewer problems although the US was heavily involved in destabilizing its government in the past. A more immediate cause of the violence in the ā€œNorthern Triangleā€ (Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador) was the mass deportation of gang members from Los Angeles back to Mexico and Central in the 1990s that helped rachet up violence there. [This article](https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/central-americas-violent-northern-triangle) gives information on the causes for violence in the area. ---
**Author:** ![Dahnlor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dahnlor/32/533_2.png) [@Dahnlor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dahnlor)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/24 "2019-06-28T22:02:19Z")
> [@Fir\_na\_tine](#): > > The question may seem stupid but Iā€™m legitimately puzzled why we never see stories about gangsters or drug dealers being arrested or at least resisted. Well, we did get a lot of news about that ā€œEl Chapoā€ dude not very long ago. That said, I would believe the answer to this question is the same reason we donā€™t ever see stories about gangsters or drug dealers being arrested in Asia, Europe or Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Fir\_na\_tine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fir\_na\_tine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fir_na_tine)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/25 "2019-06-29T00:09:59Z")
Well, obviously my question was v-e-r-y badly phrased. My apologies to anyone offended. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/26 "2019-06-29T02:53:38Z")
> [@Fir\_na\_tine](#): > > Well, obviously my question was v-e-r-y badly phrased. My apologies to anyone offended. Your question was indeed poorly put. That said, thereā€™s a real, legitimate question in there. Do countries like El Salvador, or Honduras, have any chance whatsoever of solving their own problems? If so, how can we (the United States) help? If not, what obligation do we have to intervene? Is it in our interest to do so? What form should that intervention take? Those are all fair questions. And I think thatā€™s what you were asking. Not that I have the answers, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/27 "2019-06-29T03:19:11Z")
> [@Fir\_na\_tine](#): > > It seems to me that in the last 10 or 20 years many of the countries in Central and South America have descended into total anarchy. As a result large segments of the population are fleeing to the USA. Is the remaining population ever going to come together to reinstate strong local government? > > The question may seem stupid but Iā€™m legitimately puzzled why we never see stories about gangsters or drug dealers being arrested or at least resisted. I find it savagely oblivious that an American would have the temerity to ask when any other nation will return to civilization. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/28 "2019-06-29T03:28:50Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Do countries like El Salvador, or Honduras, have any chance whatsoever of solving their own problems? Of course they do. Twenty years ago Peru was a basket case, beset by the Sendero Luminoso, but now is doing OK. Colombia has greatly improved, although itā€™s not out of the woods yet, and Guatemala is also improving. Overall, Latin America is in far better shape today than it was 40 years ago, when almost every country was in the grip of vicious dictatorships and many were beset by civil wars and insurrections. While of course there are still problem areas, the overall trend is up. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/29 "2019-07-15T17:00:51Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Thatā€™s been true in the past, but not currently. Iā€™m not aware of any significant insurgencies currently being funded by the US government in Latin America. Now the poverty in Guatemala and El Salvador _is_ partly the result of civil wars in the 1980s in which the US played a large role. On the other hand, Nicaragua currently has fewer problems although the US was heavily involved in destabilizing its government in the past. The US (specifically Secretary of State Hillary Clinton) abetted the 2009 coup in Honduras by legitimizing the interim military junta. The coup was led by generals trained at Ft. Benning at the ā€œSchool of The Americasā€ (a.k.a. dictator school). The US provided military assistance to the junta after the transition, and the US continues to legitimize the illegitimate government 10 years after the fact. The poverty rate and unemployment rate continue to rise due to mismanagement. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/30 "2019-07-15T18:15:17Z")
> [@Fir\_na\_tine](#): > > The question may seem stupid but Iā€™m legitimately puzzled why we never see stories about gangsters or drug dealers being arrested or at least resisted. Most of these countries are Spanish speaking and report local/domestic news primarily in Spanish. Do you read any Spanish language news sources with a focus on Latin America? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/31 "2019-07-15T18:48:26Z")
I asked a similar question one year ago: [What would make the countries in Central America livable?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=857954) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/32 "2019-07-15T19:12:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Define ā€œcivilized countryā€. Does it include running concentration camps? Donā€™t knowā€¦what do the Chinese say about that? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/33 "2019-07-15T19:20:47Z")
> [@Fir\_na\_tine](#): > > It seems to me that in the last 10 or 20 years many of the countries in Central and South America have descended into total anarchy. As a result large segments of the population are fleeing to the USA. Is the remaining population ever going to come together to reinstate strong local government? > > The question may seem stupid but Iā€™m legitimately puzzled why we never see stories about gangsters or drug dealers being arrested or at least resisted. To answer the OP, there are a few very unstable countries in the region that are destabilizing other, more marginal countries. The biggest one is Venezuela, whoā€™s population is fleeing the circumstances, causing destabilization of their nearest neighbors who are overwhelmed by the number of refugees, which has a sort of domino effect. No idea if the primary cause of this, namely the screwed up situation in Venezuela is going to stabilize at some pointā€¦seems pretty doubtful at this time though. As for the drug cartels in the region, most of the countries in the region are dealing with this to one extent or another. The real root cause there is just the staggering amount of money involved and, frankly, the fact that the US population is willing to buy the stuff illegally. I think to really change this there would have to be a sea change in how America looks at and deals with illegal drugsā€¦namely, IMHO, making a lot of those legal. The other thing I think would help the region is if the US were to invest heavily in manufacture there. There is a lot of potential for fairly cheap labor in the region that the US could exploit in the same way China is doing in several other countries in itā€™s region. This would inject a lot of jobs, bring in new potential markets AND give US manufacturing a cheap labor poolā€¦itā€™s a win/win, IF we could do it and stabilize the region. But the first thing seems to me would be to figure out the Venezuela issue. Currently China, Russia and a few others are propping up the Maduro regime. China is also giving the current government large ā€˜loansā€™, with the Venezuelan oil production system a the collateral. Oh, and large amounts of military gear. So, doesnā€™t seem to me that this situation has much of a hope of smoothing out any time soon. And as long as thatā€™s not the case, the region will continue to be destabilized. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/34 "2019-07-15T20:20:53Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > that guy who claimed that it was Worse to be a Minority in Trumpā€™s America than be a Jew in Nazi Germany had everyone here suddenly go ā€œMy god, heā€™s right!ā€ Link? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/35 "2019-07-15T22:19:44Z")
If America is such a terrible place, then why do more than a million people a year, attempt to enter and claim asylum here? ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/36 "2019-07-15T22:37:04Z")
It doesnā€™t have to be the bees knees for people to want to come here. Just needs to be better than their other options. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/37 "2019-07-15T22:47:31Z")
I donā€™t know - the last time Argentina had a ā€œStrong governmentā€ they had the [Dirty War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War). Some 15-20K people were ā€œdisappearedā€. I wouldnā€™t want a return to that. > [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > I find it savagely oblivious that an American would have the temerity to ask when any other nation will return to civilization. This county has problems, and not all of Latin America is a shithole, but there arenā€™t tens of thousands of American citizens risking life and limb to escape to Canada. So, yes, we are more ā€œcivilizedā€. On the whole, Iā€™d rather be here than El Salvador. Or Brazil. Or Venezuela. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/38 "2019-07-15T22:53:47Z")
[Moderating] > [@Asuka](#): > > I like how Straight Dope jumps on people for asking innocent naive questions like this but that guy who claimed that it was Worse to be a Minority in Trumpā€™s America than be a Jew in Nazi Germany had everyone here suddenly go ā€œMy god, heā€™s right!ā€ > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Link? Given that the initial remark by **Asuka** had nothing to do with the question in the OP, I donā€™t think we need to discuss that here. > [@Omar\_Little](#): > > If America is such a terrible place, then why do more than a million people a year, attempt to enter and claim asylum here? Iā€™m not seeing where the OP or others have said that the US is a terrible place to live. I think itā€™s obvious that the US has a higher standard of living than most of the rest of the hemisphere. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/39 "2019-07-16T07:43:16Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Donā€™t knowā€¦what do the Chinese say about that? What does it matter what they say?..what do _you_ say? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184/40 "2019-07-16T13:39:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What does it matter what they say?..what do _you_ say? That China is generally considered ā€˜civilizedā€™ yet has massive concentration camps housing millions of their own people in some fairly bad conditions and for some really bad reasonsā€¦that are generally ignored and forgotten about. Iā€™m sure thatā€™s who you meant though, right?? šŸ˜› Unless you were were talking about the US thereā€¦or was it Russia? Or the current European ā€˜concentration campsā€™ holding refugees trying to get into the EU? Maybe itā€™s Mexico you were referring too? I wasnā€™t sure, but based on the massive number of threads on this board about the Chinese camps it has to be them, since we are talking orders of magnitude more people (their own people) and obviously ethnically targeted specially BECAUSE of race/religion. Then there is the oddly specific biometric data the Chinese have been gathering on the Uyghurs and their notorious organ harvesting activitiesā€¦coincidence, Iā€™m sureā€¦ To get to your comment, Iā€™d say that many countries considered to be ā€˜civilizedā€™ have ā€˜concentration campsā€™ā€¦and many countries in that region also have them. But to be ā€˜civilizedā€™ means the use of the rule of law is dominant. Soā€¦well, that leaves China out I guess. Not sure why this thread struck such a cord with most posters, but itā€™s kind of hard to deny that there is a crisis in the region and several countries that were borderline have not done well since it started. Itā€™s difficult when you are talking about a neighbor melting down and, literally, millions of their citizens fleeing across the borders to neighboring countries who arenā€™t prepared for that scale of crisis, especially with as bad a shape as those refugees are. The trouble is, there isnā€™t an easy fix for this one, and I have serious doubts about any happily ever afters for Venezuela, despite the fact that China (and Russia to a certain extent) are trying to ā€˜saveā€™ them (a.k.a. Maduro et al) instead of the evil US. And this is just a symptom of a broader issue in the region. So, to answer the OP, again, as to when they will become ā€˜civilized againā€™, the answer isā€¦gods know. But I wouldnā€™t hold my breath. By the same token, of course, as other posters noted, this isnā€™t an issue across the whole region, itā€™s only a few countries being heavily affected and destabilized. Many other countries are doing fine, at least by the standards of the region. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-central-and-south-america-become-civilized-again/836184.md?page=3)