# Will Clayton Locketts Torture be the Rosa Parks moment of the Campaign against judicial killing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339 "2014-04-30T05:47:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/181 "2014-04-30T15:02:44Z")
Pjen, as a death penalty opponent, I want to say that you totally dropped the ball in this debate. There are some very convincing arguments against the death penalty including the botched execution of Lockett, but your immediate dismissal of the opponents in the debate as barbaric and uncivilized completely poisoned the well and made any debate impossible. I am opposed to the death penalty but I immediately had my hackles up when I opened this thread due to your dismissive, condescending, and judgmental stance. Just my opinion… I’m out. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/182 "2014-04-30T15:03:33Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Yes, but someone saved by the Innocence Project is not as good a poster child as one who has **actually** been executed. Proponents of capital punishment can always say “see, this guy was eventually saved, so that shows that the system works”. Yes, the best would be someone exonerating by DNA _after_ they were executed - though that messes up the speaking tour schedule a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/183 "2014-04-30T15:04:37Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > There are certain people who, by their horrific actions, deserve to die. Those examples are not many, but you know them when you see them. The fact that other nations don’t do this is odd to me. We kill bears that eat people and mad dogs-some people are no different. It’s not revenge-it’s safety. When you understand why bears and dogs aren’t the same as people, you’ll understand why most democracies don’t have the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/184 "2014-04-30T15:05:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It is an injustice when a man who has committed murder is allowed to continue to live. Every breath he is allowed to take is an injustice against his victim, to the victim’s family, and to the entire society that he has attacked. Why in the world do you think this would be remotely convincing? It’s an entirely circular argument. A murderer deserves to die because it is an injustice that they stay alive. Those mean the exact same thing. You’re just begging the question. If you have a reason for being pro-death-penalty, give it. If you don’t, feel free to believe what you want, but why are you here trying to debate people? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/185 "2014-04-30T15:07:05Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I don’t get the revenge idea about death. You could choose to punish the guy for a long time, but you choose to end his punishment early. I guess if you believe in hell it makes sense, but if you believe in that, then you are probably a Christian, and thus would have to deal with the fact that the Bible says that taking revenge is a sin. You couldn’t do it because you’d wind up in hell. > > I’m not saying there can’t be other motivations. But revenge seems like the absolute worst. Revenge is a loaded term, but I’m struggling to see where ‘the Bible’ says that exacting retribution on the offender is a sin. For example, here’s St. Paul. “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God…For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” (Romans 13: 1-4). Here’s St. John: “He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.” (Revelation 13:10). Here’s the repentant thief on the cross: "And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for _we receive the due reward of our deeds."_ (Luke 23: 39-41). The strongest biblical argument against capital punishment is John 8, and it’s indeed a strong one. Put together with the rest of the New Testament, though, it seems to me that the message of John 8 is to greatly limit our use of capital punishment, but not to do away with it entirely. It’s a tool that should be used sparingly, but not be abolished. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/186 "2014-04-30T15:08:26Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I actually rather pity death penalty advocates > > the desire for revenge is a basic undesirable urge. . Why is it undesirable? You don’t see that you’re assuming premises here that your opponents don’t share? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/187 "2014-04-30T15:09:12Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > Pjen, as a death penalty opponent, I want to say that you totally dropped the ball in this debate. There are some very convincing arguments against the death penalty including the botched execution of Lockett, but your immediate dismissal of the opponents in the debate as barbaric and uncivilized completely poisoned the well and made any debate impossible. I am opposed to the death penalty but I immediately had my hackles up when I opened this thread due to your dismissive, condescending, and judgmental stance. Just my opinion… > > I’m out. Nejp, as a slavery opponent, I want to say that you totally dropped the ball in this debate. There are some very convincing arguments against slavery including the removal of children from slave families for sale, but your immediate dismissal of the opponents in the debate as barbaric and uncivilized completely poisoned the well and made any debate impossible. I am opposed to slavery but I immediately had my hackles up when I opened this thread due to your dismissive, condescending, and judgmental stance. Just my opinion… ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/188 "2014-04-30T15:10:15Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Why is it undesirable? > > You don’t see that you’re assuming premises here that your opponents don’t share? Control is desirable. Lack of control is undesirable. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/189 "2014-04-30T15:10:35Z")
If slavery was actually a debate, that might be a clever rebuttal. But it isn’t, so it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/190 "2014-04-30T15:12:36Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Revenge is a loaded term, but I’m struggling to see where ‘the Bible’ says that exacting retribution on the offender is a sin. For example, here’s St. Paul. > > “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God…For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” (Romans 13: 1-4). > > Here’s St. John: > > “He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.” (Revelation 13:10). > > Here’s the repentant thief on the cross: > > "And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for _we receive the due reward of our deeds."_ (Luke 23: 39-41). > > The strongest biblical argument against capital punishment is John 8, and it’s indeed a strong one. Put together with the rest of the New Testament, though, it seems to me that the message of John 8 is to greatly limit our use of capital punishment, but not to do away with it entirely. It’s a tool that should be used sparingly, but not be abolished. Maybe we should not rely on a pre-inductrial largely uneducated society such as Palestine and the rest of the area 2000 years ago, and listen to what Christian ministers actually preach. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/191 "2014-04-30T15:13:57Z")
Maybe we shouldn’t care about either. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/192 "2014-04-30T15:15:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If slavery was actually a debate, that might be a clever rebuttal. But it isn’t, so it wasn’t. It was a debate several gnerations ago. This debate will look like that in fullness of time. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/193 "2014-04-30T15:17:48Z")
Perhaps, but until then you won’t do anyone any good by comparing your opponents (or in this case somebody who’s _on your side_) to supporters of slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/194 "2014-04-30T15:21:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Perhaps, but until then you won’t do anyone any good by comparing your opponents (or in this case somebody who’s _on your side_) to supporters of slavery. So people who cast a group of people into bondage because of dehumanisation are different just how from people who kill a class of people because of dehumanisation. The same justifications are offered for both practices. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/195 "2014-04-30T15:21:59Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Revenge is a loaded term, but I’m struggling to see where ‘the Bible’ says that exacting retribution on the offender is a sin. For example, here’s St. Paul. > > “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God…For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” (Romans 13: 1-4). > > Here’s St. John: > > “He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.” (Revelation 13:10). > > Here’s the repentant thief on the cross: > > "And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for _we receive the due reward of our deeds."_ (Luke 23: 39-41). > > The strongest biblical argument against capital punishment is John 8, and it’s indeed a strong one. Put together with the rest of the New Testament, though, it seems to me that the message of John 8 is to greatly limit our use of capital punishment, but not to do away with it entirely. It’s a tool that should be used sparingly, but not be abolished. I didn’t say the Bible condemned capital punishment, just that it condemned revenge as a motivation. My entire post was how the “revenge” motivation of capital punishment makes no sense. The Bible always makes a justice-based argument for capital punishment. The authority figure in Romans is given a God-given duty. The thief on the cross says his death is just, what he deserved. The line in Revelation is poetic justice. My ideas about revenge are based Romans 12:19 > [@](#): > > Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” or Proverbs 24:29 > [@](#): > > Do not say, “I will do to him as he has done to me; I will pay the man back for what he has done.” or Leviticus 19:18 > [@](#): > > You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. The Bible goes on and on about how you should wait for God to avenge wrongs against you. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/196 "2014-04-30T15:24:17Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Nejp, as a slavery opponent, I want to say that you totally dropped the ball in this debate. There are some very convincing arguments against slavery including the removal of children from slave families for sale, but your immediate dismissal of the opponents in the debate as barbaric and uncivilized completely poisoned the well and made any debate impossible. I am opposed to slavery but I immediately had my hackles up when I opened this thread due to your dismissive, condescending, and judgmental stance. Just my opinion… And this sort of thing is just the opposite version of what **Snapti** is doing. I’m sure there’s more in the thread, but I saw this just as I was leaving. Appeals to any universal sense of morality is pointless in a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/197 "2014-04-30T15:27:46Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > So people who cast a group of people into bondage because of dehumanisation are different just how from people who kill a class of people because of dehumanisation. > > The same justifications are offered for both practices. I’ve never seen anyone defend slavery on the grounds that it protects the public or prevents recidivism. I’ve never seen anyone defend slavery on the grounds that it offers “true justice” to the victims (or anyone else.) I’ve never seen anyone defend slavery that it deters people from criminal activity (or anything else.) I have seen arguments that justify the death penalty by dehumanizing convicts ( **Love Rhombus** ’ post above is a perfect example) but that seems to be the only one. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/198 "2014-04-30T15:32:05Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’ve never seen anyone defend slavery on the grounds that it protects the public or prevents recidivism. I’ve never seen anyone defend slavery on the grounds that it offers “true justice” to the victims (or anyone else.) I’ve never seen anyone defend slavery that it deters people from criminal activity (or anything else.) > > I have seen arguments that justify the death penalty by dehumanizing convicts ( **Love Rhombus** ’ post above is a perfect example) but that seems to be the only one. People used the defence of necessity- it was necessary to avoid worse effects- collapse of the economy particularly of the South (even though this was not necessarily true, many then current states managed well without it- it was really a means of saving Slave owners money). The excuse was that the African Americans were less than human and therefore could be treated thus. People use the defence of necessity- it is necessary for the maintenance of Law and Order (even though this is not necessarily true- it just satisfies blood lust- many modern democracies manage without it). The excuse is that criminals are less than human and can be treated thus. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/199 "2014-04-30T15:33:24Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > There are certain people who, by their horrific actions, deserve to die. Those examples are not many, but you know them when you see them. The fact that other nations don’t do this is odd to me. We kill bears that eat people and mad dogs-some people are no different. It’s not revenge-it’s safety. Excellent example of dehumanisation of people who are obviously fully human. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/200 "2014-04-30T15:38:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I would deem that acceptable. I appreciate this. One followup issue is that “certainty” is not a neutral term. It sound neutral, but the poor are going to find their trials end with certainty far more often than the wealthy. > [@](#): > > The cost of justice should not be a deciding factor in whether or not it should be pursued. The cost of defense is already a deciding factor, and will continue to be, for the forseeable future. Honestly, if we had a justice system that was truly neutral and reliable, I would feel much less antipathy towards the idea of the death penalty. I don’t weep for executed murderers, but I don’t think the collateral damage is worth whatever marginal justice we might squeeze out of Death vs. Life without Parole. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=11)