# Will Clayton Locketts Torture be the Rosa Parks moment of the Campaign against judicial killing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339 "2014-04-30T05:47:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/221 "2014-04-30T17:11:20Z")
You think it’s immoral for “the state” to execute people, but it’s fine to put people in a cage for fifty, sixty years, with no prospect of release? Personally, I find the latter much more repugnant and immoral. ETA: changed “not okay” to ‘immoral’ ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/222 "2014-04-30T17:14:33Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > You think it’s immoral for “the state” to execute people, but it’s fine to put people in a cage for fifty, sixty years, with no prospect of release? Personally, I find the latter much more repugnant and immoral. > > ETA: changed “not okay” to ‘immoral’ There is no reason why incarceration needs to be especially unpleasant unless you make that the policy. See the modern European prisons for long term offenders that are not designed to send people crazy like the regimes in the US are. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/223 "2014-04-30T17:19:47Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > You think it’s immoral for “the state” to execute people, but it’s fine to put people in a cage for fifty, sixty years, with no prospect of release? Personally, I find the latter much more repugnant and immoral. > > ETA: changed “not okay” to ‘immoral’ Which one is easier to rectify if the state later finds out it fucked up? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/224 "2014-04-30T17:21:08Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > There is no reason why incarceration needs to be especially unpleasant unless you make that the policy. See the modern European prisons for long term offenders that are not designed to send people crazy like the regimes in the US are. But that is often the real-world, contemporary alternative in the US. And, while that remains the case, it’s specious (IMO) to rail against the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/225 "2014-04-30T17:22:09Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > There is no reason why incarceration needs to be especially unpleasant unless you make that the policy. See the modern European prisons for long term offenders that are not designed to send people crazy like the regimes in the US are. This, also. There are many variations of prison that can be adjusted to fit our needs. There is only one death, and there is nothing we can do to change it. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/226 "2014-04-30T17:23:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Which one is easier to rectify if the state later finds out it fucked up? I want to say, ‘don’t let perfect be the enemy of good’, but I suspect you’d not be convinced. ETA: I have to go back to work. Apologies. My silence is not lack of interest. I’ll close now by asking - does not prevention of murders in prison, by murderers, in any way offset the execution of one innocent person? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/227 "2014-04-30T17:25:18Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > We choose not to reintroduce them because they are morally wrong. Are you sure about that? Would you agree that morality is subjective? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/228 "2014-04-30T17:32:37Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > I want to say, ‘don’t let perfect be the enemy of good’, but I suspect you’d not be convinced. > > ETA: I have to go back to work. Apologies. My silence is not lack of interest. I’ll close now by asking - does not prevention of murders in prison, by murderers, in any way offset the execution of one innocent person? We can be perfect- not execute any innocent people- by not executing anybody. We can also prevent people from murdering each other in prison, or at least do all that we can. No, preventing killings in prison would not justify killing an innocent person. Would you voluntarily be killed in order to reduce prison violence? I thought not. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/229 "2014-04-30T17:36:36Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > I want to say, ‘don’t let perfect be the enemy of good’, but I suspect you’d not be convinced. > > ETA: I have to go back to work. Apologies. My silence is not lack of interest. I’ll close now by asking - does not prevention of murders in prison, by murderers, in any way offset the execution of one innocent person? Has it been shown the states that use the death penalty on a regular basis have less in-prison murders? ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/230 "2014-04-30T17:36:47Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No, we don’t impose irreversible punishments. So, if I’ve spent 20 years in prison in fear of my life everyday, being subjected to God only knows what on a daily basis and then I’m released, do you honestly believe that you’ve reversed my punishment? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/231 "2014-04-30T17:38:51Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > So, if I’ve spent 20 years in prison in fear of my life everyday, being subjected to God only knows what on a daily basis and then I’m released, do you honestly believe that you’ve reversed my punishment? Not entirely, but a damn sight more than if we had executed you and then find out you didn’t do it. I don’t think hearing us say “oopsies!” from the great beyond will be much consolation for you. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/232 "2014-04-30T18:55:40Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Only red-necks in the US see access to guns as a constitutional right- another matter that excludes the US from the rest of the Western world. uh huh. Only red-necks in the US… Name calling is the mark of the morally weak. But I’ll explain it to you, in your weakened state. “We the people” declared ourselves free from tyranny and fought a war over it to gain independence. The constitution that was created from this was designed to prevent future tyranny. It was well thought out. The people who wrote it were not red necks. The United States is a young country but it is one of the oldest democracies. The constitution that created it is the well spring for the democracies that followed. “We the people” held the principles sacred enough to fight for them when those democracies were threatened. We hold human life to a higher standard than you do. The cost of that responsibility is a forfeiture of the right to life when a life is taken with malice. The forfeiture is created by the individual, not the state. The state carries it out. That you don’t agree with this is irrelevant. Your opinion doesn’t matter beyond the right to say it. We will continue to defend that right at the cost of our lives. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/233 "2014-04-30T19:09:21Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Please. Really, give it a break. If I wanted to perform a novel sacrifice procedure on an animal in a non-clinical setting, I would have to get [IACUC approval](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_Animal_Care_and_Use_Committee) and divulge the list and suppliers of the compounds being used. I would also have to justify that the use of those compounds in reducing pain and discomfort. Here, the State of Oklahoma used a secret, untested concoction of compounds to kill another human being. Again, these drugs were administered to another human being without having to divulge what drugs were used. I am left with an the conclusion that white people care more about providing humane treatment to animals than they do to human beings on death row. Indeed, the support on this forum for “botched” executions is so monstrous that it should be in some post-apocalyptic novel. > [@KarlGauss](#): > > I am an equal opportunity proponent of the death penalty and wouldn’t shed a tear for anyone convicted and sentenced for such a crime (even if the execution was “botched”). I resent the broad brush you are painting me with. KarlGauss, with all due respect, whether you (or anyone else here) supports the death penalty is immaterial. I am referring to the widespread support (including your support) for botched executions as an acceptable means to kill another human being. Whether you support or approve the death penalty, what happened to Lockett should have left you (and others) outraged. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/234 "2014-04-30T19:20:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Name calling is the mark of the morally weak. > > But I’ll explain it to you, in your weakened state. Dear Santa Claus, I don’t need anything for myself, but if you could send a mirror to **Magiver** I would be very grateful. Yours Truly, Czarcasm ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/235 "2014-04-30T19:34:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Heck, I’m mildly curious about the mindset that wants the death penalty but then exercises it in such a Three-Stoogian manner. Get some professional death experts on it, if you want your executions done with consistency and skill, rather than some clumsy inexperienced possibly-reluctant prison employees. Well, it was Oklahoma, so it’s pretty much expected that anything coming out of there will be distinctly bush league. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/236 "2014-04-30T19:49:58Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > …with all due respect, whether you (or anyone else here) supports the death penalty is immaterial. I am referring to the widespread support (including your support) for botched executions as an acceptable means to kill another human being. Whether you support or approve the death penalty, what happened to Lockett should have left you (and others) outraged. One might think so. But, then, it’s unusual for support for a death penalty to be free of vindictiveness. And vindictive feelings are often best satisfied by the creation of as much pain and distress as possible. So there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/237 "2014-04-30T20:28:05Z")
**Magiver** and **Czarcasm** , knock it off, now. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/238 "2014-04-30T21:09:59Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Not entirely, but a damn sight more than if we had executed you and then find out you didn’t do it. I don’t think hearing us say “oopsies!” from the great beyond will be much consolation for you. “Not entirely”? Try not even remotely close. From what I’ve heard about prison, I think I’d rather take an “oopsie” in the grave. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/239 "2014-04-30T21:25:21Z")
Rosa Parks being compared to a brutal convicted killer probably has her doing somersaults in her grave, even more so than in [this instance](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16927182&postcount=93). ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/240 "2014-04-30T21:28:59Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > If I wanted to perform a novel sacrifice procedure on an animal in a non-clinical setting, I would have to get [IACUC approval](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_Animal_Care_and_Use_Committee) \ > > KarlGauss, with all due respect, whether you (or anyone else here) supports the death penalty is immaterial. I am referring to the widespread support (including your support) for botched executions as an acceptable means to kill another human being. \ > > - Honesty I will give you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you’ve misinterpreted my plea to give it a break and to put down your broad brush. The paint job I was referring to involves your screed containing gems such as: > [@Honesty](#): > > The guy was black and he killed a white woman. The issue is over in most people’s minds. The peanut gallery celebrates vengeance over justice when victims are white but exhibits mild indifference when the victims are black. With that cleared up, do you care to respond to my plea to cease your simplistic and blanket accusations of racisms in the case under discussion? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=13)