# Will Clayton Locketts Torture be the Rosa Parks moment of the Campaign against judicial killing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339 "2014-04-30T05:47:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/281 "2014-05-01T10:34:57Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > M statement was: > "“No person resident in the UK has ever been denied a vote because of the colour of their skin. People in the US were for over a century.” And they still are, with voter ID laws substituting for the old literacy tests and poll taxes. Same shaft, different fig leaf. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/282 "2014-05-01T11:19:50Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Cite? for Netherlands and Spain! People born in Spain have Spanish citizenship from birth if they’re the child of someone with Spanish citizenship or if one of their parents was born in Spain: > [@](#): > > Son españoles de origen: > > a) Los nacidos de padre o madre españoles. > b) Los nacidos en España de padres extranjeros si, al menos, uno de ellos, hubiera nacido también en España. Se exceptúan los hijos de funcionario diplomático o consular acreditado en España. > c) Los nacidos en España de padres extranjeros, si ambos carecieren de nacionalidad o si la legislación de ninguno de ellos atribuye al hijo una nacionalidad. > d) Los nacidos en España cuya filiación no resulte determinada. A estos efectos, se presumen nacidos en territorio español los menores de edad cuyo primer lugar conocido de estancia sea territorio español. Which translated basically is: Someone is Spanish by origin: a. If born to a Spanish mother or father b. If born in Spain to foreign parents if one of them was born in Spain. The exception is the children of diplomatic officials and consular officers c. If born to foreign born parents who are without nationality, or if they won’t inherit their parents’ nationality. d. If their parentage can’t be determined. People whose first known place of residence is Spain are considered born in Spain As for Dutch law: Dutch father or mother Each child is a Dutch citizen when at the time of birth: The mother is a Dutch citizen and the child was born after 31 December 1984 (the child does not have to be born in the Netherlands), or The father is a Dutch citizen and is married to the mother (the mother does not need to have Dutch nationality, nor does the child have to be born in the Netherlands), or The parents have legal residence in the Netherlands and they themselves were born while their parents had legal residence in the Netherlands. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/283 "2014-05-01T11:29:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Similarly, John Wayne Gacy had a botched execution and that didn’t wind up turning people against the death penalty because he was a serial killer. Indeed, ‘botched’ executions are nothing new and have had little, if any, effect on the public’s appetite for the practice. For the record, I’ll add that years before Gacy was executed, [the hangings of at least two of two of the Germans at Nuremberg](http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/NurembergNews10_16_46.html), were also 'botched (Streicher’s - couldn’t have happened to a nicer fellow; and Sauckel’s) with nary a word said condemning such ‘barbarism’. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/284 "2014-05-01T13:06:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yeah, except the UK … oppressed far more people of color well into the 60s than the US ever did. cite? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/285 "2014-05-01T13:13:58Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > cite? I think he’s talking about that whole “owning India and large parts of Africa” thing that the UK had going on. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/286 "2014-05-01T13:18:54Z")
Not “well into the 60s” he isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/287 "2014-05-01T13:20:44Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > As for Dutch law: > > Dutch father or mother > Each child is a Dutch citizen when at the time of birth: > > The mother is a Dutch citizen and the child was born after 31 December 1984 (the child does not have to be born in the Netherlands), or > The father is a Dutch citizen and is married to the mother (the mother does not need to have Dutch nationality, nor does the child have to be born in the Netherlands), or > The parents have legal residence in the Netherlands and they themselves were born while their parents had legal residence in the Netherlands. Correct me if I’m wrong, but unlike the US if your parents are in the country illegally, you are not a citizen simply by being born there. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/288 "2014-05-01T13:35:36Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Pjen, I think what you’re doing here is great, but you’re wasting your time. The guy was black and he killed a white woman. The issue is over in most people’s minds. The peanut gallery celebrates vengeance over justice when victims are white but exhibits mild indifference when the victims are black. White people could only spare us 80 or so years before restarting their Tuskegee-esque experiments. The people celebrating his death and the botched execution are not unlike the monsters on _Attack on Titan_. Over the last few weeks, it has never been so clear that white people want us gone. Treating us like some Palestinian step-children and shit. We don’t fire missiles nor we don’t engage in terrorism but still treated like animals. I just wish they’d move forward on a reparation and repatriation package so we can get the hell out of dodge. > > I move the idea that we should turn death row into mini concentration camps. That way, white people can use death row inmates for life-long experimentation followed by organ harvesting and burning the remains. You can broadcast the human experiments on pay-per-view television and use the proceeds to fix your broken, pot-hole riddled roads and your crumbling bridges that you’ve intentionally neglected for over three decades. > > - Honesty Honesty, I’m going to ask you to tone this sort of thing down. To say that all white people do X (regardless of whatever X may be) is just as unacceptable as saying all blacks do X (regardless of whatever X may be). Characterizing groups in such a way is something I don’t want to see happen in Great Debates, whether it’s racial, political parties, or hair color. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/289 "2014-05-01T14:07:37Z")
You _would_ say that, you damn ginger! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/290 "2014-05-01T14:16:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but unlike the US if your parents are in the country illegally, you are not a citizen simply by being born there. Right? The USA situation seems unclear with no firm decision on the status of children of illegals. Don’t we have a specialist in such matters on the board? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/291 "2014-05-01T14:18:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but unlike the US if your parents are in the country illegally, you are not a citizen simply by being born there. Right? Actually if I read this last part correctly, even f the parents are legal residents you’re still not automatically granted citizenship. It’s only if if they were legal residents and THEY were born in the Netherlands while their parents were legal residents. > [@](#): > > The parents have legal residence in the Netherlands and they themselves were born while their parents had legal residence in the Netherlands. Personally I think it’s far more disgusting and vastly more immoral to refuse to grant citizenship people born in your country to legal or illegal immigrants(but especially to legal residents) than it is to execute murderers(though I’m oppossed to the death penalty). Moreover, despite Pjen’s desperate hand waving it’s pretty clearly being done to try and restrict citizenship due to fear of immigrants and Muslim immigrants in particular. Now, Pjen can continue to try and argue that discrimination based on “heritage” is somehow fundamentally different than discrimination based on “colour”, but it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/292 "2014-05-01T14:21:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not “well into the 60s” he isn’t. I was thinking of the fact that they didn’t give up the last of their colonies until the early 1960s, but you’re correct, it was an exaggeration which I shouldn’t have added. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/293 "2014-05-01T14:29:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Actually if I read this last part correctly, even f the parents are legal residents you’re still not automatically granted citizenship. It’s only if if they were legal residents and THEY were born in the Netherlands while their parents were legal residents. > > Personally I think it’s far more disgusting and vastly more immoral to refuse to grant citizenship people born in your country to legal or illegal immigrants(but especially to legal residents) than it is to execute murderers(though I’m oppossed to the death penalty). > > Moreover, despite Pjen’s desperate hand waving it’s pretty clearly being done to try and restrict citizenship due to fear of immigrants and Muslim immigrants in particular. > > Now, Pjen can continue to try and argue that discrimination based on “heritage” is somehow fundamentally different than discrimination based on “colour”, but it isn’t. Two words Dred Scott. Nothing like it save the Third Reich. It stripped citizenship from Free Born Blacks solely because of the colour of their skin, some who had been so since 1776! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/294 "2014-05-01T14:31:13Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The USA situation seems unclear with no firm decision on the status of children of illegals. > > Don’t we have a specialist in such matters on the board? Respectfully, what are you talking about? It’s very clear. The children of “illegals” are automatically granted US citizenship. Are you actually suggesting that the US could be a “civilized”(to use your term) country and deny millions of children born in the US citizenship based on the fact that their parents aren’t legal residents? Let me ask you a question. Which would in your opinion make the US more civilized? A. The US stopped executing convicted murderers(right now if all people scheduled for execution this year are carried out, which is unlikely,) but the US denied citizenship to the millions born and raised in America to illegal immigrants. Or B. The US continued executing a small percentage of convicted murderers but also continues to grant citizenship to the children of illegal immigrants. Same question with legal immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/295 "2014-05-01T14:51:55Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > … millions born and raised in America to illegal immigrants. Really millions? Or is that another exaggeration? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/296 "2014-05-01T14:52:55Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It’s very clear. The children of “illegals” are automatically granted US citizenship. As are the children of “legals”. If your first breath is drawn within US territory you are a citizen. > [@](#): > > Which would in your opinion make the US more civilized? > > A. The US stopped executing convicted murderers(right now if all people scheduled for execution this year are carried out, which is unlikely,) but the US denied citizenship to the millions born and raised in America to illegal immigrants. > > Or > > B. The US continued executing a small percentage of convicted murderers but also continues to grant citizenship to the children of illegal immigrants. I choose C. The US stops executing anybody and the Constitution continues to be followed in that if you’re born in the US, you are a citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/297 "2014-05-01T15:25:06Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Respectfully, what are you talking about? > > It’s very clear. The children of “illegals” are automatically granted US citizenship. > > Are you actually suggesting that the US could be a “civilized”(to use your term) country and deny millions of children born in the US citizenship based on the fact that their parents aren’t legal residents? > > Let me ask you a question. > > Which would in your opinion make the US more civilized? > > A. The US stopped executing convicted murderers(right now if all people scheduled for execution this year are carried out, which is unlikely,) but the US denied citizenship to the millions born and raised in America to illegal immigrants. > > Or > > B. The US continued executing a small percentage of convicted murderers but also continues to grant citizenship to the children of illegal immigrants. > > Same question with legal immigrants. Don’t be silly. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/298 "2014-05-01T15:56:15Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Don’t be silly. No it’s not silly. Which is worse. Executing a small number of murderers or denying millions of people citizenship in the country of their birth? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/299 "2014-05-01T16:13:22Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No it’s not silly. > > Which is worse. > > Executing a small number of murderers or denying millions of people citizenship in the country of their birth? I did not say the post was silly in itself. You expecting an answer is silly. “When did you stop beating your wife” False dichotomy. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/300 "2014-05-01T16:16:52Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I did not say the post was silly in itself. You expecting an answer is silly. “When did you stop beating your wife” > > False dichotomy. I’m not sure you understand the concept of “false dichotomy”. Explain how it is? I’m just asking which is worse. It shouldn’t be a difficult question to answer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=16)