# Will Clayton Locketts Torture be the Rosa Parks moment of the Campaign against judicial killing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339 "2014-04-30T05:47:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/301 "2014-05-01T16:19:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m not sure you understand the concept of “false dichotomy”. > > Explain how it is? > > I’m just asking which is worse. It shouldn’t be a difficult question to answer. You have now changed the question. Go away. ---
**Author:** ![Tacit\_Knowledge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@Tacit\_Knowledge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tacit_Knowledge)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/302 "2014-05-01T16:29:20Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Revenge is not Justice. But it’s close enough. I’ll take it. An eye for an eye… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/303 "2014-05-01T16:31:54Z")
> [@Tacit\_Knowledge](#): > > But it’s close enough. I’ll take it. An eye for an eye… …eventually leads to The Kingdom Of The Blind. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/304 "2014-05-01T16:46:53Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > From where does your morality come that the State should kill people without clear need? It doesn’t. As I already pointed out to you, I am _opposed_ to the death penalty. I just don’t think your arguments against it are very convincing. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/305 "2014-05-01T17:01:37Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > … denying millions of people citizenship in the country of their birth? Literally millions? That is a surprisingly large number. Cite? Or is it another exaggeration. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m not sure you understand the concept of “false dichotomy”. > > Explain how it is? And I think he \*does \*understand. A falser dichotomy is when you offer a choice between two options, and say that ONE must be picked, when in fact they are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to have both, or neither. It looks to me like that’s exactly what you have done. Perhaps you would care to explain how it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/306 "2014-05-01T17:09:13Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Literally millions? That is a surprisingly large number. Cite? Or is it another exaggeration. > > And I think he \*does \*understand. > > A falser dichotomy is when you offer a choice between two options, and say that ONE must be picked, when in fact they are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to have both, or neither. > > It looks to me like that’s exactly what you have done. > > Perhaps you would care to explain how it isn’t. Thanks. I was just too annoyed to state it so clearly. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/307 "2014-05-01T17:12:26Z")
> [@](#): > > How many U.S. children have unauthorized immigrant parents? > > About 5.5 million children living in the United States in 2010 (the most recently available estimates) had at least one parent who was an unauthorized immigrant, according to the Pew Research Hispanic Trends Project. Of this group, about 82 percent (4.5 million) were U.S. citizens by birth and 18 percent (1 million) were unauthorized immigrants themselves. The number of children with unauthorized immigrant parents has significantly increased since 2000, when there were 3.6 million such children. However, over the same period, the number of unauthorized immigrant children declined from 1.5 to 1.0 million, while the number of U.S.-born children with unauthorized immigrant parents grew from 2.1 million to 4.5 million. [http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested-statistics-immigrants-and-immigration-united-states#9](http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested-statistics-immigrants-and-immigration-united-states#9) When there’s over 10 million illegal immigrants in the US I am baffled why anyone would be shocked to learn there’s millions of babies born to them. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/308 "2014-05-01T17:44:08Z")
thank you. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/309 "2014-05-01T17:48:26Z")
And IMHO, Ibn Warraq did not truly offer a false dichotomy because he was asking what was more important - not stating those were the only options available. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/310 "2014-05-01T17:53:19Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You have now changed the question. > > Go away. Pjen, Love ya, baby. Truly. But don’t tell other posters to ‘go away’ so dismissively. To quote Malcolm Reynolds, “I’d consider it a kindness.” ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/311 "2014-05-01T17:58:36Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Literally millions? That is a surprisingly large number. Cite? Or is it another exaggeration. > > And I think he \*does \*understand. > > A falser dichotomy is when you offer a choice between two options, and say that ONE must be picked, when in fact they are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to have both, or neither. > > It looks to me like that’s exactly what you have done. > > Perhaps you would care to explain how it isn’t. I’m at work so I wasn’t trying to dodge your question particularly since the answer that millions of babies have been born to mothers in the US is widely known. And no it wasn’t a false dichotomy. I asked which was morally worse. Denying citizenship to millions of people simply because their parents were immigrants(legally or illegally) or executing a small number of murderers? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/312 "2014-05-01T18:14:42Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You have now changed the question. > > Go away. No I didn’t, nor did I engage in personal insults. So which would you find morally worse? A)If the US no longer automatically granted citizenship to he children of immigrants(legal or illegal) and instead adopted a policy common in many European countries while it stopped executing a small number of murderers? Or B)The US continued to execute a small number of murderers but also continued to automatically grant citizenship to the children of immigrants born in the US rather than adopting a European approach. I would personally prefer European nations adopt less bigoted policy regarding citizenship and the US abandon the death penalty but of the above options, I think B is clearly preferable and more civilized. What do you think? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/313 "2014-05-01T18:20:19Z")
You don’t think it’s a false dilemma? Fine, call it whatever you want. But it’s certainly an irrelevant question. The children of illegal immigrants have no connection to the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/314 "2014-05-01T18:20:41Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No I didn’t, nor did I engage in personal insults. > > So which would you find morally worse? > > A)If the US no longer automatically granted citizenship to he children of immigrants(legal or illegal) and instead adopted a policy common in many European countries while it stopped executing a small number of murderers? > > Or > > B)The US continued to execute a small number of murderers but also continued to automatically grant citizenship to the children of immigrants born in the US rather than adopting a European approach. > > I would personally prefer European nations adopt less bigoted policy regarding citizenship and the US abandon the death penalty but of the above options, I think B is clearly preferable and more civilized. > > What do you think? > > Thanks. I think it is fortunate that we don’t have to choose one over the other, and that finding something to be morally bad does not preclude us from addressing things that aren’t _quite_ as morally bad. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/315 "2014-05-01T18:21:58Z")
Right, call it an irrelevant question. We don’t don’t need to go to the Logical Fallacies for Internet Arguments Dictionary quite so often. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/316 "2014-05-01T18:32:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think it is fortunate that we don’t have to choose one over the other, and that finding something to be morally bad does not preclude us from addressing things that aren’t _quite_ as morally bad. When someone has been repeatedly insisting throughout this thread that the US is vastly less “civilized” than countries which do refuse to grant citizenship to the children of immigrants it’s extremely relevant what policies gauge how “civilized” a country is. Perhaps Pjen can tell us which is more uncivilized, denying millions citizenship because their parents were immigrants or executing a small number of murderers. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/317 "2014-05-01T18:41:09Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > When someone has been repeatedly insisting throughout this thread that the US is vastly less “civilized” than countries which do refuse to grant citizenship to the children of immigrants it’s extremely relevant what policies gauge how “civilized” a country is. > > Perhaps Pjen can tell us which is more uncivilized, denying millions citizenship because their parents were immigrants or executing a small number of murderers. I would guess it would depend on how one’s personal priorities lay…and how one phrases the question. Which one is more uncivilized-Denying a transfer of citizenship, or killing innocent prisoners because you can’t be bothered to spend the time or money to sort them out from the guilty ones? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/318 "2014-05-01T19:58:42Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Two words Dred Scott. Nothing like it save the Third Reich. It stripped citizenship from Free Born Blacks solely because of the colour of their skin, some who had been so since 1776! Question – who invented the concentration camp? (Hint: it wasn’t the Third Reich) ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/319 "2014-05-01T20:45:34Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Xenophobia is different from Racism. > > Most countries in the world define their population by being born of people born there. In countries where these are all one stock (Germany, Japan, India, China, Russia) then nationality tends to pass down genetically and hence by race. However if a child is born with one German parent (such as new African related Germans from US servicemen with German mothers, they have citizenship. **Relatively few countries award citizenship by accident of birth.** Got any cite for a country that does not have any means of establishing citizenship at birth? Or perhaps you erred in using the term [accident of birth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_of_birth). It includes racial makeup as well as place and circumstances of birth, among many factors. [voice in my head] This is not the Pit. Be nice. This is not the Pit. be nice. [/voice in my head] ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/320 "2014-05-01T20:54:43Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The USA situation seems unclear with no firm decision on the status of children of illegals. > > Don’t we have a specialist in such matters on the board? It’s not unclear at all in the US. [SCOTUS settled the matter in 1898](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Wong_Kim_Ark). In the US v Wong Kim Ark decision all children born in the United States are US citizen regardless of the status of their parents with the narrow Exceptions of the children of persons\* not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and excepting Indians not taxed. Subsequent law granted citizenship to Indians not taxed. \*Children of diplomats or soldiers of invading armies, for example, would not be US citizens. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=17)