# Will Clayton Locketts Torture be the Rosa Parks moment of the Campaign against judicial killing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339 "2014-04-30T05:47:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/341 "2014-05-02T10:51:58Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > You know what bugs the crap out of me on this topic? **We have records of god knows how many people who have been executed and proven innocent after the fact**. But we accidentally kill someone clearly guilty of a heinous crime in a “less humane” way, and _that’s_ the reason to scrap the system? Granted, we should be getting rid of capital punishment anyways, but this is a _terrible_ reason to do it. Do we, though? Clear-cut cases? Since DNA-testing became commonplace? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/342 "2014-05-02T10:58:24Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > He slashed his wrists and was refused sutures. Only if “was refused” now means ‘did not require’ > [@Pjen](#): > > He was refused his choice of last meal. Except for the fact that _he_ refused his last meal. Your argument is weak enough as it is. You really don’t need to make stuff up. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/343 "2014-05-02T11:00:42Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Do we, though? Clear-cut cases? Since DNA-testing became commonplace? Maybe not so many recently, but still, [we’re looking at something like 4%](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent). The fact is that innocent people are killed by the death penalty, yet what gets people riled up is that someone who is guilty gets killed in a slightly brutal way. I’m sorry, but isn’t the entire purpose of the death penalty deterrent? _Shouldn’t_ we be killing them brutally? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/344 "2014-05-02T11:33:26Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Maybe not so many recently, but still, [we’re looking at something like 4%](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent). The fact is that innocent people are killed by the death penalty, yet what gets people riled up is that someone who is guilty gets killed in a slightly brutal way. I’m sorry, but isn’t the entire purpose of the death penalty deterrent? _Shouldn’t_ we be killing them brutally? But is it a deterrent at all? Are there any studies that show that, in prisons that have carried out executions, there have been drops in violence immediately before and/or after an execution has taken place there? I think what got people riled up was that when people went by the rules and used the system to try to put a halt to executions until it could be determined what exactly was going on regarding the chemical compounds being used, the State decided that nothing, including the courts initially, was going to get in its way. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/345 "2014-05-02T11:38:12Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > That is your moral compass. The only States that agree with you are Japan and China, Iran, Iraq, much of Africa, and the rest of the developing and undeveloped world. > > It is absolutely banned in Europe by constitutional decision. yeah… How about Singapore? Just where do you put them on your scale? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/346 "2014-05-02T12:00:51Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I’m sorry, but isn’t the entire purpose of the death penalty deterrent? _Shouldn’t_ we be killing them brutally? [No.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/656/when-someone-is-executed-by-lethal-injection-do-they-swab-off-the-arm-first) From the link: > [@Cecil](#): > > Which brings us to what I think is the real reason for swabbing the arm — it allows the executioners to think of themselves as professionals doing a job rather than killers. > > Nazi death camp guards observed no such niceties. We’re better, because we do. Frankly, the justice system is no place for bloodlust and vengeance. It is a place for a dispassionate review of facts, and an even handed application of punishments for crimes. If execution is part of it, you fucking well do it right, you quickly and efficiently end the life of the convicted. If you want to torture people before their deaths, pass a law that torture is an appropriate punishment for crimes. We have no such law, therefore botching an execution and torturing the person for 45 minutes before his death is something to be avoided. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/347 "2014-05-02T12:42:53Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Maybe not so many recently, but still, [we’re looking at something like 4%](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent). Do you have a cite for what you claimed? The cite given does not say that 4% of the executed are innocent. To be sure of the claim, here is it again - > [@](#): > > We have records of god knows how many people who have been executed and proven innocent after the fact. Unless by “God knows how many” = 0. Again, the elements of the claim - [ul][li]That they were executed, and[/li][li]they were proven innocent.[/ul][/li] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/348 "2014-05-02T13:00:58Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Maybe not so many recently, but still, [we’re looking at something like 4%](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent). The fact is that innocent people are killed by the death penalty, yet what gets people riled up is that someone who is guilty gets killed in a slightly brutal way. I’m sorry, but isn’t the entire purpose of the death penalty deterrent? _Shouldn’t_ we be killing them brutally? I’m against the death penalty, but you’re not helping by making false claims. Here’s what your cite claims: > [@](#): > > At least 4.1% of all defendants sentenced to death in the US in the modern era are innocent, according to the first major study to attempt to calculate how often states get it wrong in their wielding of the ultimate punishment. > > \ > > The team arrived at a deliberately conservative figure that lays bare the extent of possible miscarriages of justice, suggesting that the innocence of more than 200 prisoners still in the system may never be recognised. > > \ > > The study concludes chillingly that “the great majority of innocent defendants who are convicted of capital murder in the United States are neither executed nor exonerated. They are sentenced, or resentenced to prison for life, and then forgotten”. The story here is not about innocent people being killed, but rather (allegedly) innocent people who once off death row fall into the cracks of the legal system because people stop caring about them. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/349 "2014-05-02T13:27:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you have a cite for what you claimed? The cite given does not say that 4% of the executed are innocent. > > To be sure of the claim, here is it again - > Unless by “God knows how many” = 0. > > Again, the elements of the claim - > [ul][li]That they were executed, and[/li][li]they were proven innocent.[/ul][/li] > Regards, > Shodan The issue isn’t - or shouldn’t be - whether they were proved innocent, but whether it was shown that they are not proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If evidence turns up that shows an executed criminal might reasonably have been found not guilty, that for me is enough to say he should not have been executed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/350 "2014-05-02T13:31:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The issue isn’t - or shouldn’t be - whether they were proved innocent, but whether it was shown that they are not proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If evidence turns up that shows an executed criminal might reasonably have been found not guilty, that for me is enough to say he should not have been executed. Perhaps you should take that up with the person making the claim, then. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/351 "2014-05-02T15:01:11Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Ricky Ray Rector > > [Ricky Ray Rector - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Ray_Rector) > > Despicable. Despicable that he shot four innocent people in cold blood and killed, two of them, or that he didn’t finish his pie? ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/352 "2014-05-02T15:05:16Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Despicable that he shot four innocent people in cold blood and killed, two of them, or that he didn’t finish his pie? Despicable that he killed two innocent people, and despicable that the state executed a mentally ill individual. One thing does not justify the other ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/353 "2014-05-02T15:12:27Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Despicable that he killed two innocent people, and despicable that the state executed a mentally ill individual. One thing does not justify the other Therein lies the point. In our society, by definition and by law, it does indeed justify the other. If you wreak a certain level of violence upon our society, society reserves the right to put you to death. He certainly wasn’t disabled when he killed two people and shot two others. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/354 "2014-05-02T15:23:04Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Therein lies the point. In our society, by definition and by law, it does indeed justify the other. If you wreak a certain level of violence upon our society, society reserves the right to put you to death. > > He certainly wasn’t disabled when he killed two people and shot two others. After the lobotomy, where was the need to choose execution over life in prison? Are you afraid he might have grown that part of his brain back and escaped? Are you willing to consider the possibility that the man that might have deserved the death penalty might not have existed anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/355 "2014-05-02T15:27:13Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Therein lies the point. In our society, by definition and by law, it does indeed justify the other. If you wreak a certain level of violence upon our society, society reserves the right to put you to death. > > He certainly wasn’t disabled when he killed two people and shot two others. Could you explain what public good is achieved by killing a mentally ill criminal? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/356 "2014-05-02T15:27:57Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Despicable that he shot four innocent people in cold blood and killed, two of them, or that he didn’t finish his pie? Despicable that a thinking intelligent man like Clinton should send to execution someone so mentally impaired that he did not know that he was about to be killed. That is severely mentally challenged to a level that SCOTUS said should not suffer execution. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/357 "2014-05-02T15:31:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If evidence turns up that shows an executed criminal might reasonably have been found not guilty, that for me is enough to say he should not have been executed. That’s pretty much what I am asking for - instances where it can be shown that someone was executed when he shouldn’t have been. **Budget Player Cadet** claimed that there are a lot of those cases. I would like to see the evidence for those cases. Because, as mentioned, the study to which he linked does not mention anyone who was executed who was definitely shown to be innocent. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/358 "2014-05-02T15:33:28Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Except for the fact that _he_ refused his last meal. Uh, no. \*Warner was served a final meal Tuesday of 20 boneless chicken wings, potato wedges, cole slaw, two fruit cocktail cups and a 20-ounce soda. Lockett’s request of steak, shrimp, a large baked potato and a Kentucky Bourbon pecan pie was denied because it exceeded the $15 limit. He declined a separate offer from the warden for a dinner from Western Sizzlin’, prison officials said.\* He made a request. It was turned down for costing more than $15. He was offered somethiong totally different to his request, and declined the different thing. > [@](#): > > Your argument is weak enough as it is. You really don’t need to make stuff up. pot, kettle. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/359 "2014-05-02T15:34:03Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Only if “was refused” now means ‘did not require’ > Except for the fact that _he_ refused his last meal. > > Your argument is weak enough as it is. You really don’t need to make stuff up. He requested a last meal and was told it was too expensive. He refused what was offered instead. Happy about the rest of the way he was treated by the state as they killed him? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/360 "2014-05-02T15:37:08Z")
So part of the horrible torture to which he was subjected is that he didn’t get exactly what he wanted for dinner? Oh, the humanity. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=19)