# Will Clayton Locketts Torture be the Rosa Parks moment of the Campaign against judicial killing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339 "2014-04-30T05:47:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/361 "2014-05-02T15:47:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So part of the horrible torture to which he was subjected is that he didn’t get exactly what he wanted for dinner? > > Oh, the humanity. > > Regards, > Shodan Just a list of indignities and you stress that one. Happy with everything else then? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/362 "2014-05-02T15:51:58Z")
Not my fault if your list is ridiculous. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/363 "2014-05-02T16:13:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So part of the horrible torture to which he was subjected is that he didn’t get exactly what he wanted for dinner? > > Oh, the humanity. > > Regards, > Shodan Nope, just pointing out Karl’s error to him. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/364 "2014-05-02T16:14:28Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Just a list of indignities and you stress that one. Happy with everything else then? As a guy who is ‘only’ ~55% in the pro-capital punishment group, and willing to be swayed the other way, I have to admit that your poster boy against it - a guy who raped a young girl and beat and buried alive another one isn’t all that compelling. And then saying he suffered the . . . indignity :dubious: . . .of not getting the steak he wanted is amazingly tone deaf. I mean, really? The wrong steak for dinner? That’s really what you wanted to trot out?? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/365 "2014-05-02T16:28:20Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > As a guy who is ‘only’ ~55% in the pro-capital punishment group, and willing to be swayed the other way, I have to admit that your poster boy against it - a guy who raped a young girl and beat and buried alive another one isn’t all that compelling. > > And then saying he suffered the . . . indignity :dubious: . . .of not getting the steak he wanted is amazingly tone deaf. > > I mean, really? The wrong steak for dinner? That’s really what you wanted to trot out?? It’s not so much that it is being trotted out-it’s that you and others in this thread focus on it to the exclusion of everything else that happened. By the way(for the umpteenth time) the focus isn’t on this particular prisoner as any sort of poster boy-the focus is on what went on before, during and after that made this particular execution a fucking farce. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/366 "2014-05-02T16:47:54Z")
It seems that Oklahoma has something to hide: “The state’s execution protocol requires that attempts be made to revive an inmate if the execution process is called off. At an open meeting of the board of corrections on Thursday, Patton refused to answer a question from the Guardian about whether any attempts were made to revive Lockett, and walked out of the room.” > **[UN human rights chief condemns Oklahoma execution of Clayton Lockett](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/un-human-rights-condemns-oklahoma-execution-clayton-lockett)** > > UN high commissioner for human rights said process may have amounted to 'cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment' ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/367 "2014-05-02T16:50:28Z")
The UN Human Rights Commissioner is none too happy: "“The suffering of Clayton Lockett during his execution in Oklahoma on Tuesday, 29 April, may amount to cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment according to international human rights law,” said Rupert Colville, spokesman for the UN high commissioner for human rights. Colville said that the execution also appeared to run counter to the US constitution, which bars “cruel and unusual punishment”. He told reporters: “The prolonged death of Clayton Lockett is the second case of apparent extreme suffering caused by malfunctioning lethal injections reported in 2014 in the United States,” referring to the case of Dennis McGuire, executed in Ohio in January with an allegedly untested combination of drugs. “The apparent cruelty involved in these recent executions simply reinforces the argument that authorities across the United States should impose an immediate moratorium on the use of the death penalty and work for abolition of this cruel and inhuman practice,” said Colville." > **[UN human rights chief condemns Oklahoma execution of Clayton Lockett](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/un-human-rights-condemns-oklahoma-execution-clayton-lockett)** > > UN high commissioner for human rights said process may have amounted to 'cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment' ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/368 "2014-05-02T16:52:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s not so much that it is being trotted out-it’s that you and others in this thread focus on it to the exclusion of everything else that happened. Nonetheless, this kind of silly overstatement brings into doubt the rest of the complaints as well. He was Tazer’ed in the morning. So what? Prisoners have to do what the guards say, even on death row. He didn’t get the steak he wanted. So what? The regulations said his last meal couldn’t cost more than $15. He didn’t get sutures after he cut his own arm. So what? He didn’t need them. He apparently had a heart attack after he was unconscious, and died of it. So what? He was unconscious, and the whole idea is to kill him. Maybe it would be easier or quicker to string the bastard up instead of trying lethal injections. So what? No one is naive enough to think that would be good enough for the anti-DP types. They’re gonna complain even if they have to make things up. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/369 "2014-05-02T17:01:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Nonetheless, this kind of silly overstatement brings into doubt the rest of the complaints as well. > > He was Tazer’ed in the morning. So what? Prisoners have to do what the guards say, even on death row. > > He didn’t get the steak he wanted. So what? The regulations said his last meal couldn’t cost more than $15. > > He didn’t get sutures after he cut his own arm. So what? He didn’t need them. > > He apparently had a heart attack after he was unconscious, and died of it. So what? He was unconscious, and the whole idea is to kill him. > > Maybe it would be easier or quicker to string the bastard up instead of trying lethal injections. So what? No one is naive enough to think that would be good enough for the anti-DP types. They’re gonna complain even if they have to make things up. > > Regards, > Shodan Would you mind citing your source for what happened during his botched execution because it doesn’t seem to match up with the account in the post previous to yours…or any other source I’ve seen so far, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/370 "2014-05-02T17:06:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s not so much that it is being trotted out-it’s that you and others in this thread focus on it to the exclusion of everything else that happened. By the way(for the umpteenth time) the focus isn’t on this particular prisoner as any sort of poster boy-the focus is on what went on before, during and after that made this particular execution a fucking farce. By the way (for the umpteenth time) the focus _shouldn’t be_ on the indignity of the steak dinner, or on what you feel made this a fucking farce. _It should be_ on what these men choose to do, of their own volition, knowing full well what the ramifications were if convicted. There has been enough ax grinding so I’ll just go to the cold facts. Per the Associated Press: “Lockett was found guilty of first degree murder, conspiracy, first-degree burglary, three counts of assault with a dangerous weapon, three counts of forcible oral sodomy, four counts of first-degree rape, four counts of kidnapping and two counts of robbery by force and fear. The charges were after former convictions of two or more felonies, according to the court clerk’s office.” Charles Warner was convicted of raping and murdering an 11-month-old child. Enough said there. For me, what Locketts had to endure while bad, doesn’t come close in any way of balancing out the crimes he overtly committed. That is why your arguments don’t get any traction with me (and I presume) others. And frankly ignoring these hideous crimes while whining about a steak dinner or getting taz’ed (also of his own choosing) I find disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/371 "2014-05-02T17:10:51Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > By the way (for the umpteenth time) the focus _shouldn’t be_ on the indignity of the steak dinner, or on what you feel made this a fucking farce. > > _It should be_ on what these men choose to do, of their own volition, knowing full well what the ramifications were if convicted. > > There has been enough ax grinding so I’ll just go to the cold facts. Per the Associated Press: > > “Lockett was found guilty of first degree murder, conspiracy, first-degree burglary, three counts of assault with a dangerous weapon, three counts of forcible oral sodomy, four counts of first-degree rape, four counts of kidnapping and two counts of robbery by force and fear. The charges were after former convictions of two or more felonies, according to the court clerk’s office.” > > Charles Warner was convicted of raping and murdering an 11-month-old child. Enough said there. > > For me, what Locketts had to endure while bad, doesn’t come close in any way of balancing out the crimes he overtly committed. That is why your arguments don’t get any traction with me (and I presume) others. > > And frankly ignoring these hideous crimes while whining about a steak dinner or getting tased (also of his own choosing) I find disgusting. Did you read the article linked to in **Pjen’s** last post? What is your opinion about the lies told about his being unconscious during the botched execution? Is it o.k. that they apparently broke the law by letting him die of a massive heart attack? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/372 "2014-05-02T17:10:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Maybe it would be easier or quicker to string the bastard up instead of trying lethal injections. So what? It would probably be easier to just shut the door to his cell and let him die of starvation. Or, we could have a special death room where the condemned can be tortured to death for the amusement of the assembled viewers. Or, we can try to treat the condemned with a certain amount of dignity, not for their sake, for our own. We are already taking this person’s life for the crime he committed, we don’t have to stain ourselves by lowing our standards to those of the monsters we’re trying to get rid of. You can spring for a $20 steak dinner, you can bind his wounds properly, and you can kill him without making the veins in his groin explode. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/373 "2014-05-02T17:11:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s not so much that it is being trotted out-it’s that you and others in this thread focus on it to the exclusion of everything else that happened. By the way(for the umpteenth time) the focus isn’t on this particular prisoner as any sort of poster boy-the focus is on what went on before, during and after that made this particular execution a fucking farce. He got a better death than his victims by far. That he didn’t go gently into the night in a dreamless fade away just means he died like the everybody else on the planet. Death is rarely a pleasant experience. They didn’t tase him because it was fun, they did it because of his own actions. The same goes for his meal. He chose something above the cost guidelines and got nothing. He probably fought them on the table and caused the botched needle insertion. He made his own death as unpleasant as possible for himself. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/374 "2014-05-02T17:14:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s pretty much what I am asking for - instances where it can be shown that someone was executed when he shouldn’t have been. **Budget Player Cadet** claimed that there are a lot of those cases. I would like to see the evidence for those cases. Because, as mentioned, the study to which he linked does not mention anyone who was executed who was definitely shown to be innocent. > > Regards, > Shodan Just to be clear, **Shodan** , is it your contention, as a conservative Republican, that the government, in thousands and thousands of death penalty cases, has never once applied it in error? Because if so, holy shit, that’s impressive! If the government can bring that kind of bullet-proof accuracy to capital punishment, we should _definitely_ be putting the government in charge of more aspects of society. Let’s get the government bureaucrats who run this absolutely flawless system on doing some central planning for the economy! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/375 "2014-05-02T17:14:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He got a better death than his victims by far. Good. We are supposed to be better than him. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/376 "2014-05-02T17:14:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He probably fought them on the table and caused the botched needle insertion. That’s not what happened according to _any_ of the eyewitness accounts…but whatever it takes to justify your beliefs, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/377 "2014-05-02T17:14:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He got a better death than his victims by far. That’s irrelevant to me. We can’t sink to the same level as him by torturing him to death. > [@Magiver](#): > > That he didn’t go gently into the night in a dreamless fade away just means he died like the everybody else on the planet. Death is rarely a pleasant experience. Yes but this death was **made** unpleasant, it didn’t have to be. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/378 "2014-05-02T17:22:20Z")
Why is it right to treat a human that kills worse than we would a dog that kills? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/379 "2014-05-02T17:23:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Just to be clear, **Shodan** , is it your contention, as a conservative Republican, that the government, in thousands and thousands of death penalty cases, has never once applied it in error? No, actually it is the contention of the various anti-DP folks that some number of innocent people have been executed, and I wanted to see the evidence for this. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/380 "2014-05-02T17:23:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Did you read the article linked to in **Pjen’s** last post? What is your opinion about the lies told about his being unconscious during the botched execution? Is it o.k. that they apparently broke the law by letting him die of a massive heart attack? He lived a violent life, and brought much pain and suffering to many others sole due to his violent choices. His death wasn’t as calm and peaceful as the state intended for it to be. Some of this (the dinner, the tazer, the cuts) also, 100% of his choosing. Hard for me to get worked up over this considering the totality of the issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=20)