# Will Clayton Locketts Torture be the Rosa Parks moment of the Campaign against judicial killing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339 "2014-04-30T05:47:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/401 "2014-05-02T18:16:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, actually it is the contention of the various anti-DP folks that some number of innocent people have been executed, and I wanted to see the evidence for this. The case is pretty easy to make as induction: (1) Nearly two hundred persons sentenced to death, and having exhausted their ordinary direct and collateral appeals, have subsequently been exonerated by DNA testing. (2) Other persons, convicted with similar evidence, have not had available evidence containing DNA preserved and able to be tested. (3) Some of those people have been executed. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/402 "2014-05-02T18:27:28Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > I am sorry that you had to experience that; seriously, it must have been a wretched experience. > > That said, I did not want to get into it in my earlier post, but [high potassium levels stop the heart dead in its tracks](http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/240903-overview), with either ventricular fibrillation or asystole. Ventricular tachycardia, a rhythm which as you can attest may go on for some time, is NOT usually a result of high potassium. In other words, Lockett’s heart would have just stopped with no period before hand of palpitations, oxygen deprivation to the body, etc. The problem is that apparently the IV tissued and hence the bolus of potassium never reached the heart but dispersed into the tissues around the groin leading to a much more moderate rise in potassium blood levels that tends to cause VT not VF. So much minimising. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/403 "2014-05-02T18:42:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The case is pretty easy to make as induction: > > (1) Nearly two hundred persons sentenced to death, and having exhausted their ordinary direct and collateral appeals, have subsequently been exonerated by DNA testing. Let’s be accurate, please. 144 acquittals in the modern era, and DNA evidence was used in 18 of them. > **[Description of Innocence Cases | Death Penalty Information Center](https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/policy/innocence/description-of-innocence-cases)** > > The Death Penalty Information Center (DPI) is a national non-profit organization whose mission is to serve the media, policymakers, and the general public… I agree, though, that it is statistically likely that a few innocent persons have been executed. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/404 "2014-05-02T19:30:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The case is pretty easy to make as induction: > > (1) Nearly two hundred persons sentenced to death, and having exhausted their ordinary direct and collateral appeals, have subsequently been exonerated by DNA testing. > > (2) Other persons, convicted with similar evidence, have not had available evidence containing DNA preserved and able to be tested. > > (3) Some of those people have been executed. Which ones? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/405 "2014-05-02T19:37:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Which ones? There are a few probables [here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution#United_States) Unfortunately, > [@](#): > > Statistics likely understate the actual problem of wrongful convictions because once an execution has occurred there is often insufficient motivation and finance to keep a case open, and it becomes unlikely at that point that the miscarriage of justice will ever be exposed. In the case of Joseph Roger O’Dell III, executed in Virginia in 1997 for a rape and murder, a prosecuting attorney argued in court in 1998 that if posthumous DNA results exonerated O’Dell, “it would be shouted from the rooftops that … Virginia executed an innocent man.” The state prevailed, and the evidence was destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/406 "2014-05-02T20:25:03Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > So to be clear. It would have been more humane to stop the process, bring in medical professionals to save him from a heart attack, just to put him to death at a later date? Isn’t that what the law requires? By the way, what’s it called when someone puts another person to death in a manner contrary to law? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/407 "2014-05-02T20:28:08Z")
It’s obviously not about the steak, but the steak does rather highlight the contempt with which the State treats prisoners in their care. $15 is a joke. This guy was under the care of the State, and they should at least care for him with a modicum of professionalism and decency. Not for his sake, but for their own, and ours. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/408 "2014-05-02T20:54:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Which ones? The innocent ones. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/409 "2014-05-02T21:34:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The innocent ones. Can you list them? That would surely clear things up. The idea that some innocent people have been killed is possible, maybe even likely, but not certain. That’s the issue. People on my side are claiming certainty where none exists. I wish they would stop because they are not helping the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/410 "2014-05-02T21:41:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you list them? That would surely clear things up. The idea that some innocent people have been killed is possible, maybe even likely, but not certain. That’s the issue. People on my side are claiming certainty where none exists. I wish they would stop because they are not helping the argument. Did you check out the link in post #405? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/411 "2014-05-02T22:17:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you list them? That would surely clear things up. The idea that some innocent people have been killed is possible, maybe even likely, but not certain. That’s the issue. People on my side are claiming certainty where none exists. I wish they would stop because they are not helping the argument. Well, there’s the poor guy in Texas who not only was convicted of some murders he didn’t commit , but of murderers that didn’t happen. [http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron\_Todd\_Willingham](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham) ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/412 "2014-05-02T22:28:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Well, there’s the poor guy in Texas who not only was convicted of some murders he didn’t commit , but of murderers that didn’t happen. > > [http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron\_Todd\_Willingham](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham) If you choose to read about Willingham (who definitely seems to have been a victim of a gross miscarriage of justice to put it mildly), [this article about him and his case from The New Yorker (free)](http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann) is absolutely sensational. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/413 "2014-05-02T22:34:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Well, there’s the poor guy in Texas who not only was convicted of some murders he didn’t commit , but of murderers that didn’t happen. > > [http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron\_Todd\_Willingham](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham) Can you quote the part was he was exonerated? The article is certainly compelling, but I’d like to see the court documents reversing the guy.s guilty verdict. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/414 "2014-05-02T22:35:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you quote the part was he was exonerated? The article is certainly compelling, but I’d like to see the court documents reversing the guy.s guilty verdict. Are dead people ever exonerated by courts? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/415 "2014-05-02T22:56:56Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Are dead people ever exonerated by courts? [Yes.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/12/convict-exonerated-after-death_n_1272061.html). And in Texas, to boot! Technically not by the courts, but by the executive branch. I’ll accept that evidence, too. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/416 "2014-05-02T23:43:10Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > If you choose to read about Willingham (who definitely seems to have been a victim of a gross miscarriage of justice to put it mildly), [this article about him and his case from The New Yorker (free)](http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann) is absolutely sensational. I have. That’s a great article and quite chilling. It’s one thing to find out about someone executed for a crime he didn’t commit, it’s quite another to hear about someone executed for a crime that didn’t actually happen. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/417 "2014-05-03T05:38:45Z")
Interesting: “Family of Oklahoma inmate killed in botched execution may sue state” > **[Family of Oklahoma inmate killed in botched execution may sue state](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/family-oklahoma-inmate-clayton-lockett-botched-execution-sue-state)** > > Stepmother of Clayton Lockett, who died of a heart attack on Tuesday, says: 'We are not to torture people to death' ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/418 "2014-05-03T05:48:14Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It’s obviously not about the steak, but the steak does rather highlight the contempt with which the State treats prisoners in their care. $15 is a joke. Why is it a joke? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/419 "2014-05-03T06:21:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Why is it a joke? Because a limit like that is just set to appease the haters. It used to be a gesture to the condemned- one last good meal and a cigarette. The punitive state needs to prove to its punitive voters that it can be petty and nasty as well as just killing people. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/420 "2014-05-03T07:11:29Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Because a limit like that is just set to appease the haters. It used to be a gesture to the condemned- one last good meal and a cigarette. The punitive state needs to prove to its punitive voters that it can be petty and nasty as well as just killing people. I regularly get a steak dinner for $10 with baked potato, rolls, and salad. I guess I’m not eating up to the budget standards set for convicted killers. Who knew. But that was his choice to ignore the guidelines. Just like it was his choice to cut his wrists. Just like his choice to struggle and get tased. It’s most likely a result of him struggling that the needle insertion didn’t go well. And I’ll just point again to your choice of words for people you disagree with. They’re now haters. Maybe the violent criminals in my country will wise up and take their show on the road to a theater near you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=22)