# Will Clayton Locketts Torture be the Rosa Parks moment of the Campaign against judicial killing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339 "2014-04-30T05:47:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/421 "2014-05-03T07:39:32Z")
Who gives a shit about the fucking state dinner already! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/422 "2014-05-03T07:44:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I regularly get a steak dinner for $10 with baked potato, rolls, and salad. I guess I’m not eating up to the budget standards set for convicted killers. Who knew. But that was his choice to ignore the guidelines. Just like it was his choice to cut his wrists. Just like his choice to struggle and get tased. It’s most likely a result of him struggling that the needle insertion didn’t go well. > > And I’ll just point again to your choice of words for people you disagree with. They’re now haters. > > Maybe the violent criminals in my country will wise up and take their show on the road to a theater near you. There is no evidence that he struggled to avoid the cannulisation. The official reports merely note that adequate sites could not be found. As a mental health nurse I can tell you that with a struggling patient the easiest route is in the arm, the most difficult is in the groin or axilla- ergo he was not struggling. You cannot love and kill someone against their will; only hate allows that. We have been two generations without state sanctioned killing and crime rates remain low and get lower. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/423 "2014-05-03T09:43:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you list them? That would surely clear things up. The idea that some innocent people have been killed is possible, maybe even likely, but not certain. That’s the issue. People on my side are claiming certainty where none exists. I wish they would stop because they are not helping the argument. Certainty of innocence, as I’ve said before, is not relevant. There is no way we can be certain of the guilt of everyone who has been executed, or who will be executed in the future and, in my opinion, absent that certainty there should be no executions. It’s also my opinion that even with certainty there should be no executions, but I consider that a valid subject for debate. That the state should happily execute people it doesn’t know to be guilty, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/424 "2014-05-03T14:20:57Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Interesting: > > “Family of Oklahoma inmate killed in botched execution may sue state” > > [Family of Oklahoma inmate killed in botched execution may sue state | Capital punishment | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/family-oklahoma-inmate-clayton-lockett-botched-execution-sue-state) So f’ing what? They want to profit from their murdering, raping family member’s death. But actually, I’m sure they are just doing that to give that to the murdered girls family. Because they, like you are just kinder and gentler. **Pjen** you seem like a true believer, but just throwing stuff on the wall to see what will stick (see the steak discussion above) is counter productive. Who’s point are you trying to prove here? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/425 "2014-05-03T16:29:11Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > So f’ing what? > > They want to profit from their murdering, raping family member’s death. > > But actually, I’m sure they are just doing that to give that to the murdered girls family. Because they, like you are just kinder and gentler. > > **Pjen** you seem like a true believer, but just throwing stuff on the wall to see what will stick (see the steak discussion above) is counter productive. > > Who’s point are you trying to prove here? The points are: 1/ This is a moral issue, not a political one. 2/ So, it is more like slavery and racism, not an even playing field, but given our moral assumptions about what it is to be human, no one should suffer thus unnecessarily. 3/ The vast majority of liberal democratic rule of law states have accepted this as they have accepted the abolition of slavery and the avoidance of racism. 4/ Because of its interesting history, the USA remains an out-lier and behind the drift of western moral direction, though this is changing rapidly. 5/ Any action from posting in a challenging manner here, through campaigning against such killing, supporting groups that make such killing difficult by withdrawing drug supply, refusing to extradite to death making regimes such as the US, encouraging families of botched execution to sue for wrongful death, preaching from the pulpit and so on are a moral and not merely a political action. We would not accept a state saying that as it had voted for slavery or apartheid, it was justified in being treated as an acceptable partner rather than a pariah state. I would support any legal action (and many illegal ones) that oppose judicial killing in the same way my ancestors opposed slavery, and I supported Civil Rights leaders and anti-apartheid campaigns. I recognise the pro- killing arguments here as analogous to arguments defending slavery and apartheid. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/426 "2014-05-03T17:17:16Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I used ‘accident of birth’ on purpose- those people who just happen to be in a country- travelling, visiting etc. Only the Americas recognise such a strong lex soli (the UK comes close). Many other countries choose to limit citizenship to children of citizens and take little notice of the place of birth.Countries make their own laws. Very few choose lex soli. OK. Clarifying then… Your interpretation of “accident of birth” seems to apply only to _jus soli_ citizenship? Such an interpretation would be wrong. The accidents of your birth also include who your parents are, including what citizenship they hold (among many other factors). So whatever citizenship you received at birth, whether by _jus soli_ or _jus sanguinis_, you can strike that up to an accident of birth. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/427 "2014-05-03T17:41:34Z")
And no accident of birth makes you a murdering rapist. That’s entirely of a person’s own making. As John Stuart Mill once said we impose the death penalty not because we hold human life so cheaply but because we hold it in the highest possible regard and look upon its extinguishing by murder as the most appalling of crimes and subject to the forfeiture of the killer’s own life. It’s always seemed eminently fair to me. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/428 "2014-05-03T17:45:13Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I would support any legal action (and many illegal ones) that oppose judicial killing in the same way my ancestors opposed slavery, and I supported Civil Rights leaders and anti-apartheid campaigns. > > I recognise the pro- killing arguments here as analogous to arguments defending slavery and apartheid. The thing about slavery – as helpfully noted in the 13th Amendment – is that it’s objectionable, and downright horrifying, to put people in involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime. The thing about apartheid is that it’s wrong to treat people as second-class citizens – unless they’re, y’know, felons getting locked up or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/429 "2014-05-03T17:45:47Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > And no accident of birth makes you a murdering rapist. That’s entirely of a person’s own making. As John Stuart Mill once said we impose the death penalty not because we hold human life so cheaply but because we hold it in the highest possible regard and look upon its extinguishing by murder as the most appalling of crimes and subject to the forfeiture of the killer’s own life. It’s always seemed eminently fair to me. You state as fact a contention that is without scientific support. It is a political and moral belief that such personal responsibility exists. At best there is little empirical support for it, at worst the laws of nature make it a physical impossibility. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/430 "2014-05-03T17:47:31Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > The thing about slavery – as helpfully noted in the 13th Amendment – is that it’s objectionable, and downright horrifying, to put people in involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime. The thing about apartheid is that it’s wrong to treat people as second-class citizens – unless they’re, y’know, felons getting locked up or whatever. Exactly, and by the same argument it is wrong to kill people unnecessarily. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/431 "2014-05-03T17:51:03Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Exactly, and by the same argument it is wrong to kill people unnecessarily. And, by the same argument, right to kill 'em as punishment – and wrong to lock 'em in a small cage unnecessarily, and right to do so as punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/432 "2014-05-03T18:09:38Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And, by the same argument, right to kill 'em as punishment – and wrong to lock 'em in a small cage unnecessarily, and right to do so as punishment. Wrong. One of the basics of being human is the possession of ones own life. That is higher than possession of freedom. I have no problem with lifers or others deciding to end their own lives- unlike current practice which is to deny them that right as part of their punishment. But the right to life itself, if desired, is paramount and should not be removed except as a necessity. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/433 "2014-05-03T18:14:43Z")
You say they can choose to forfeit their lives. I agree entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/434 "2014-05-03T18:18:01Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You say they can choose to forfeit their lives. > > I agree entirely. If such is their choice as autonomous individuals; not if it is an undesired consequence of state sanctioned killing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/435 "2014-05-03T18:26:05Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > If such is their choice as autonomous individuals; not if it is an undesired consequence of state sanctioned killing. Big-hearted guy that I am, how about we compromise by announcing in a clear voice that _if you choose to do X or Y or Z, you forfeit your right to life_, and then let autonomous individuals so opt if they desire? ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/436 "2014-05-03T18:43:22Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The points are: > … > 5/ Any action from posting in a challenging manner here, through campaigning against such killing, **supporting groups that make such killing difficult by withdrawing drug supply** , refusing to extradite to death making regimes such as the US, encouraging families of botched execution to sue for wrongful death, preaching from the pulpit and so on are a moral and not merely a political action. We would not accept a state saying that as it had voted for slavery or apartheid, it was justified in being treated as an acceptable partner rather than a pariah state. > … **bolding** mine Can you clarify how widespread or narrowly the withdrawing of drug supply can be and still be morally justified? Does it matter if the drug is not available for others who might benefit from it for other medical purposes? Is it acceptable to deny a drug to 100 (or 1000, or 10000… pick a number) patients in order to prevent its use in 1 execution? Is it morally justified for a drug manufacturer to refuse export to an entire country because some small fraction of their product may be used in an execution? How about limiting it by state in the US? (Many states do not have the death penalty for state crimes). Or must such withdraw of product be more limited? How do you decide. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/437 "2014-05-03T18:44:41Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Big-hearted guy that I am, how about we compromise by announcing in a clear voice that _if you choose to do X or Y or Z, you forfeit your right to life_, and then let autonomous individuals so opt if they desire? How about that doesn’t sound like anything he meant? If you disagree with his contention just say so and skip these word games. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/438 "2014-05-03T18:53:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How about that doesn’t sound like anything he meant? If you disagree with his contention just say so and skip these word games. Of course I disagree with his contention, but that’s a pretty quick exchange: he says _no_, I say _yes_, we’re done. And if he wants to say _nobody ever has the right to take any life, including one’s own,_ then I’d flatly disagree and that’d be it. But if he wants to contend that people should be free to, uh, autonomously decide to forfeit their lives, then I’d like to explore whether he feels they can so choose under such a framework, because, again, I’m fine with tacking that warning label on. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/439 "2014-05-03T18:57:23Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Of course I disagree with his contention, but that’s a pretty quick exchange: he says _no_, I say _yes_, we’re done. And if he wants to say _nobody ever has the right to take any life, including one’s own,_ then I’d flatly disagree and that’d be it. > > But if he wants to contend that people should be free to, uh, autonomously decide to forfeit their lives, then I’d like to explore whether he feels they can so choose under such a framework, because, again, I’m fine with tacking that warning label on. He thinks that the right to take a life should _only_ be a personal choice, and you want things to stay the way they are, where the state has the right to take a person’s life. Where is the compromise, again? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/440 "2014-05-03T19:03:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > He thinks that the right to take a life should _only_ be a personal choice, and you want things to stay the way they are, where the state has the right to take a person’s life. But only if the felon in question makes the _personal choice_ to commit a capital crime. I can’t stress that enough. > [@](#): > > Where is the compromise, again? Maybe “compromise” is the wrong choice of words. How about – “win-win”? My side gets to execute criminals, and his side gets to insist that said criminals make the _personal choice_ to commit capital crimes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=23)