# Will Clayton Locketts Torture be the Rosa Parks moment of the Campaign against judicial killing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339 "2014-04-30T05:47:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/521 "2014-05-05T20:42:40Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I feel like I should face the consequences for what I’ve done; “do unto others,” y’know? > > Ditto. That’s funny. I would have felt relieved. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/522 "2014-05-05T21:05:20Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It all depends on how one defines ‘free will’ and choice. They are ill defined terms. Maybe for you. You’re struggling with a debate and have resorted to parsing words in search of a way out. It’s not a problem in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/523 "2014-05-05T21:53:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s funny. I would have felt relieved. Admittedly. But consider a tweak of **Pjen** ’s scenario: imagine we hear that a gunman has sprayed bullets into a crowd of innocents – at which point I’d feel, among other things, that the perpetrator should be brought to justice. Why, it could’ve been _me_ in that crowd! Or it could’ve been my wife and child! Or my beloved parents! And imagine we later hear that – as it happens – no one in the crowd was actually hurt; one bullet whistled past the ear of Crowdmember #3, another bullet hit the ground right between Crowdmember #7 and Crowdmember #8, yet another bullet punched clean through a bundle of rags next to a little kid, and et cetera. I feel relief, sure – but that _other_ thing I felt, about how the gunman should be brought to justice? That’s still there; it doesn’t change; put me on the jury, it’d be an honor. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/524 "2014-05-07T16:08:55Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Stop with the sanctimony. Really, for someone who comes into this thread and accuses anyone who supports the death penalty, or who thinks Lockett got what was coming to him, as being racist, as being content with things because, well, Lockett is black and his victim was white \ I am excited and thrilled that you can look at the present under the narrow microscope of the last decade. Unfortunately, I cannot. I do not buy into this post-racialism bullshit especially given the last decade. If your moderators were not here to wipe the slate clean, this very message board would be overrun by threads about how blacks are stupid, how we’re violent, how we’re going to steal from you, etc etc. You’re living in a bubble and I don’t buy into it. Sorry. > [@KarlGauss](#): > > \ your holier-than-thou schtick is really off-putting. I know. Before, I would spend hours carefully collecting cites to debate, but after getting burnt trying to explain what an experimental control is or proving that U.S roads and bridges are crumbling (et al.), I have decided it’s more amusing (to me) and less time consuming to post this way. > [@KarlGauss](#): > > By the way, I’m still waiting for the apology you owe me. For calling me racist. The apology you could have given me in post 233 and which I asked for yet again in post 240. Will you now? I didn’t call you a racist, I nonspecifically implied you (and others) were. You do not get extra points because you ostensibly support botched executions regardless of sex, creed, or color. The fact that you support botched executions makes you just as bit of as a monster that you’re purporting me to be. So no, you don’t get an apology. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > To make sure I understand what you’re saying, when you say “white people” in these two paragraphs, do you mean “all white people”, “most white people”, “some white people”, “conservative white people”, “white people who are racists”, “a few white people”, or something else? The qualifier is irrelevant. It’s white people or predominately so. In this specific case, the Governor is white, the Supreme Court Justices\* are white, the Attorney General is white, the Congressmen that threatened the Supreme Court Justices (who supported Lockett) with impeachment are white, and, curiously enough, the Court of Criminal Appeals\* are white. White white white white. The people who are making decisions are predominately white and given the history of white people’s animus toward blacks in this country, it should not come to anyone’s surprise (except the SDMB) that the decision to run a live, untested death experiment on a human being was not somehow motivated by race. C’mon. How do you see it? I am not just blowing smoke here, either. I mean, you see 98% of the people who making these bad decisions are white people yet we’re supposed to think the decision was carried out free of bias? That this isn’t the will of the majority of people of Oklahoma? C’mon. I bet you $1,000,000 that if this happened to [Aileen Wuornos](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFBcjII3QAE)’ crazy ass, there would be much bigger outcry. Though, let’s be honest, every effort was likely expended to ensure her execution was humane just for that reason. In contrast, Lockett was denied that opportunity (a humane execution) and allowed to writhe in agony for \>30 minutes. > [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > I don’t normally agree with the concept of slavery reparations but this post has convinced me I might be wrong. > > I’d happily donate $700 of my own money to a fund created for the purpose of ensuring **Honesty** leaves America and never comes back. > > Of course, I apologize in advance to whichever country winds up with **Honesty.** You likely do not have money to fund my repatriation to another country. Instead, I would graciously ask that you donate that money to the State of Oklahoma and direct it to death penalty research or the U.S Department of Transportation to fix your pot-hole riddled roads and crumbling bridges. - Honesty - Both courts have one token black. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/525 "2014-05-07T16:48:13Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > - Both courts have one token black. How many token blacks would be fair? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/526 "2014-05-07T17:52:36Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > The qualifier is irrelevant. It’s white people or predominately so. In this specific case, the Governor is white, the Supreme Court Justices\* are white, the Attorney General is white, the Congressmen that threatened the Supreme Court Justices (who supported Lockett) with impeachment are white, and, curiously enough, the Court of Criminal Appeals\* are white. White white white white. The people who are making decisions are predominately white and given the history of white people’s animus toward blacks in this country, it should not come to anyone’s surprise (except the SDMB) that the decision to run a live, untested death experiment on a human being was not somehow motivated by race. C’mon. The other recent “botched” execution using “test” drugs was in Ohio where the person executed was white. So the notion that “the decision to run a live, untested death experiment on a human being was not somehow motivated by race” actually appears to be true. I oppose the death penalty. Beyond my basic opposition to it, in any situation, I recognize that it is unfairly and preponderantly used against blacks in this country. However, no one makes a case for their beliefs by simply declaring every issue “racial” and refusing to consider any other evidence when evaluating a situation. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/527 "2014-05-07T19:08:16Z")
How can you argue with “C’mon”? I mean, c’mon. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/528 "2014-05-07T19:15:29Z")
Link for tomndebb’s point: [State executes murderer Dennis McGuire, marking first use of new blend of drugs for lethal injection](http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2014/01/state_executes_murderer_dennis.html) Explain why they experimented first on a white guy, Honesty. Self hating whites, I suppose? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/529 "2014-05-07T19:45:49Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > How can you argue with “C’mon”? I mean, c’mon. And shit. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/530 "2014-05-07T19:56:39Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I didn’t call you a racist, I nonspecifically implied you (and others) were. Uh-huh. Dude, you’re in a hole. Stop digging. I’m pretty sure saying “I didn’t call him an asshole, I merely implied he was an asshole” isn’t going to convince people I didn’t insult him. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/531 "2014-05-09T06:07:02Z")
Well, Oklahoma is Judicial Killing free for six months- things are moving. > **[Oklahoma agrees to 180-day stay of execution for death-row inmate](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/oklahoma-180-day-stay-execution-charles-warner)** > > Oklahoma governor Mary Fallin has ordered an investigaton into the botched execution of Clatyon Lockett ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/532 "2014-05-09T07:51:43Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Well, Oklahoma is Judicial Killing free for six months- things are moving. > > [Oklahoma agrees to 180-day stay of execution for death-row inmate | Capital punishment | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/oklahoma-180-day-stay-execution-charles-warner) Your optimism is amusing if not infectious. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/533 "2014-05-09T08:00:08Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Your optimism is amusing if not infectious. Things have moved. A gung-ho death penalty state is taking a six month break while it decides the future. This is a ratchet effect- every cock-up and error made by judicial killers leads inexorably towards an eventual declaration that it is Cruel and Unusual Punishment. It may take another generation but that is the way things are moving. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/534 "2014-05-09T08:04:26Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Things have moved. A gung-ho death penalty state is taking a six month break while it decides the future. This is a ratchet effect- every cock-up and error made by judicial killers leads inexorably towards an eventual declaration that it is Cruel and Unusual Punishment. So you’re acknowledging that if there aren’t any “cock-ups and errors”, that it’s _not_ cruel and unusual? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/535 "2014-05-09T08:21:00Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Things have moved. A gung-ho death penalty state is taking a six month break while it decides the future. This is a ratchet effect- every cock-up and error made by judicial killers leads inexorably towards an eventual declaration that it is Cruel and Unusual Punishment. It may take another generation but that is the way things are moving. It is most certainly not a ratchet effect situation. Ratchet effect has to do with binding laws and penalty for backsliding not for dreamy hopes that the courts will outlaw capital punishment eventually because of a fuck up or two. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/536 "2014-05-09T09:50:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So you’re acknowledging that if there aren’t any “cock-ups and errors”, that it’s _not_ cruel and unusual? No. try reading English as it is written, and using logic. I said If A then B, not Iff A and B. A implies B but A is not necessary for B. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/537 "2014-05-09T09:51:56Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It is most certainly not a ratchet effect situation. Ratchet effect has to do with binding laws and penalty for backsliding not for dreamy hopes that the courts will outlaw capital punishment eventually because of a fuck up or two. It is a ratchet of Public opinion and legal likelihood. As fewer states choose to kill, the punishment becomes more unusual. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/538 "2014-05-09T15:06:01Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Well, Oklahoma is Judicial Killing free for six months- things are moving. > > [Oklahoma agrees to 180-day stay of execution for death-row inmate | Capital punishment | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/oklahoma-180-day-stay-execution-charles-warner) That just means that there will be more people executed in a shorter period when they complete their investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/539 "2014-05-23T06:08:04Z")
Back on Topic It seems that it has had an effect on SCOTUS who have sent this case back for reconsideration against its recent usual practice of refusing last minute appeals for stays of execution. > **[Supreme Court Halts Missouri Execution and Sends Case Back to Appeals Court...](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/22/us/order-by-supreme-court-halts-missouri-execution.html?action=click&module=Search®ion=searchResults&mabReward=relbias%3Aw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fquery.nytimes.com%2Fsearch%2Fsitesearch%2F%3Faction%3Dclick%26region%3DMasthead%26pgtype%3DHomepage%26module%3DSearchSubmit%26contentCollection%3DHomepage%26t%3Dqry778%23%2Frussell%2Bbucklew&_r=0)** > > Justices halted the execution of Russell Bucklew, who argued that he would suffer great pain if he were killed by a lethal injection because of his rare vascular disease. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/540 "2014-05-23T08:01:15Z")
[Tennessee has brought back the electric chair.](http://www.aol.com/article/2014/05/22/tennessee-brings-back-electric-chair/20891140/?icid=maing-grid7%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D479721) I’m sure this is exactly what the anti-CP people were hoping to accomplished when they started pushing the pharmaceuticals to stop making lethal injection drugs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=28)