# Will Clayton Locketts Torture be the Rosa Parks moment of the Campaign against judicial killing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339 "2014-04-30T05:47:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/581 "2014-07-24T09:47:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Was Stalin’s life of value? Was Pol Pot’s life of value? Was Pinochet’s life of value? > > Implying that “convicted multiple murderers” are a protected class on par with women and minorities is just plain ludicrous and says more about your values than it does about mine. > > Oh, this is rich. Please, do tell us - what _nobility_ is present in a man who beats and humiliates his girlfriend until she leaves him, and then punishes her for doing so by murdering her father right in front of her eyes and then making her beg for her life before killing her anyway? > > I’m absolutely _dying_ to know what grand spark of the divine exists in such a man that is so worthy of exultation. > > And there you go again with your smug “Europe rules, USA drools” blather that underlies and undermines your entire argument. You’re not here to complain about the death penalty, you’re here to fling mud at America. Most people experiencing judicial killing in the USA have fully repented their crime and are changed people from the person who committed the crime so many decades ago. It is this possibility of rehabilitation and repentance that is at the root of the Christian (and other) beliefs about the unique value of an individual. Given the experience that it is possible to manage society exceptionally well without judicial killing, advocates of it have a hard time claiming the defence of necessity available for such acts- it can be shown that it is not necessary, but a choice to inflict revenge and bodily punishment. I ahve worked with murderers, and child molesters and have never seen the slightest need to kill them, only the human need to prevent further damage and assist the recovery of the humanity of a person who has erred. Few polities with an advanced moral and legal structure still resort to mediaevalism. I am proud to be separated from the USA that fails in this instance. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/582 "2014-07-24T09:48:38Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > “Torture is the act of deliberately inflicting severe physical or psychological pain and possibly injury to a person (or animal), usually to one who is physically restrained or otherwise under the torturer’s control or custody and unable to defend against what is being done to them.” Wikipedia > > [Torture - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture) > > No mention of intent, only of deliberately causing. So you admit that they didn’t commit torture, since they had no deliberate intent to cause pain. > [@](#): > > The State of Arizona had every reason to believe that its untried method of judicial killing would go wrong considering the recent history of botched executions. If by “recent history of botched executions” you mean _one_ botched execution. > [@](#): > > That is torture in my book. Sounds like your book could use an editor. > [@](#): > > I wonder how many such occurrences will cause SCOTUS to decide it is cruel and unusual. Seems to me that a large number of such occurrences would cause it to _not_ meet the “unusual” part of the criteria. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/583 "2014-07-24T09:48:57Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Including false arguments? Straw man again- you seem to be a slow learner. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/584 "2014-07-24T09:50:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So you admit that they didn’t commit torture, since they had no deliberate intent to cause pain. > > If by “recent history of botched executions” you mean _one_ botched execution. > > Sounds like your book could use an editor. > > Seems to me that a large number of such occurrences would cause it to _not_ meet the “unusual” part of the criteria. Look, you are obviously a ghoul who enjoys inflicting pain and terror on individuals. Your debating style is as warped as your moral compass. I am out of here with my morals intact. I will leave you to your swamp. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/585 "2014-07-24T09:53:33Z")
To correct the assertion that these have been isolated incidents: — July 23, 2014. Joseph Rudolph Wood gasped and snorted for more than an hour and a half after his execution began in Arizona, prompting his lawyers to file an emergency appeal with the U.S. Supreme Court demanding that it be stopped. Wood gasped more than 600 times before he was pronounced dead, one hour and 57 minutes after the execution started. Defense lawyer Dale Baich called it a botched execution that should have taken 10 minutes. — April 29, 2014. Clayton Lockett’s execution in Oklahoma was halted by the state’s prison director after Lockett gritted his teeth, tried to lift his head and convulsed. Oklahoma was using a new sedative as part of its three-drug lethal injection procedure. Blinds were lowered to block the view of witnesses. When halted, Lockett already had been declared unconscious by a physician. The state corrections agency said Lockett died later of a heart attack. An autopsy was being conducted. — January 16, 2014. Dennis McGuire repeatedly gasped during the record 26 minutes it took him to die in Ohio’s execution chamber. The Department of Rehabilitation and Correction said its review determined McGuire was asleep and unconscious a few minutes after the drugs were administered and ‘he did not experience pain, distress or air hunger after the drugs were administered or when the bodily movements and sounds occurred.’ — September 15, 2009. In Ohio, inmate Romell Broom avoided execution after prison technicians were unable to find a suitable vein after trying for two hours. Broom even had helped to find a good vein. Then-Gov. Ted Strickland ordered the halt. Broom, who remains on Ohio’s death row, has complained that he was stuck with needles at least 18 times and suffered intense pain. He’s sued, arguing that a second attempt to put him to death would be unconstitutionally cruel. — December 13, 2006. When Florida inmate Angel Diaz continued to move, was squinting and grimacing after receiving the injection, a second dose of chemicals was administered. Florida prison officials initially blamed the issue on Diaz’s liver problems. An autopsy later found his liver undamaged but that the needle had gone through Diaz’s vein and out the other side, meaning the chemicals went into soft tissue and not the vein. As a result, then-Gov. Jeb Bush suspended executions in Florida and named a panel to examine the process. — May 2, 2006. In Ohio, Joseph L. Clark’s lethal injection was stalled for 22 minutes before prison technicians located a suitable vein. Shortly after the execution began, the vein collapsed and Clark’s arm began to swell. He raised his head and said: ‘It don’t work. It don’t work.’ Curtains were closed while the technicians worked for 30 minutes to find another vein. Clark wasn’t pronounced dead until nearly 90 minutes after the process started. — April 23, 1998. Texas inmate Joseph Cannon made his final statement and the injection process began. When there was no immediate reaction, he had a quizzical look on his face, then blurted out: ‘It’s come undone.’ A vein in Cannon’s arm had collapsed and the needle popped out. A curtain was pulled to block the view of the witnesses. Fifteen minutes later, it was reopened and the execution was completed. — July 18, 1996. Indiana inmate Tommie J. Smith’s lethal injection took 69 minutes when prison technicians were unable to locate suitable veins. A physician was summoned to give Smith a local anesthetic. The doctor also tried unsuccessfully to insert the lethal needle in Smith’s neck. A vein in his foot finally was successful 49 minutes after the process began. He was pronounced dead 20 minutes later. — May 3, 1995. Emmitt Foster’s punishment in Missouri was halted seven minutes after it began when chemicals stopped. Foster gasped and convulsed and the blinds in the death chamber were drawn. He was pronounced dead 30 minutes later and the blinds were reopened so witnesses could see his body. A coroner who pronounced him blamed the problem on leather straps that bound Foster too tightly to the execution gurney and restricted the flow of the chemicals. The straps had been loosened to complete the punishment. — May 10, 1994. Serial killer John Wayne Gacy’s execution in Illinois was interrupted as the lethal chemicals unexpectedly solidified, clogging the intravenous tube that led into his arm. Prison officials drew blinds to cover the witness window and the clogged tube was replaced. Ten minutes later, the blinds were opened and the punishment resumed. The problem was blamed on the inexperience of prison officials. — May 7, 1992. Texas prisoner Justin Lee May had an unusually violent reaction to the lethal drugs, gasping and coughing and rearing against the leather belts that restrained him to the death chamber gurney. Amid groans, he lifted his head. His eyes and mouth remained open as he died. — December 13, 1988. Texas inmate Raymond Landry was pronounced dead 40 minutes after being strapped to the execution gurney and 24 minutes after the drugs started flowing into his arms. Two minutes after the drugs were administered, the needle came out of Landry’s vein, spraying the chemicals toward witnesses. The curtain separating witnesses from Landry was pulled, then reopened 14 minutes later after the execution team reinserted the needle. Texas prison officials described it as ‘blowout.’ Subsequently, a plastic window was erected in the Texas death chamber to separate the inmate from witnesses. Read more: [Arizona inmate Joseph Rudolph Wood dies 2 HOURS after execution began | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2703498/Arizona-inmate-dies-2-hours-execution-began.html#ixzz38NVWrbEL) Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/586 "2014-07-24T09:56:35Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Most people experiencing judicial killing in the USA have fully repented their crime and are changed people from the person who committed the crime so many decades ago. But they still _are_ the person that committed the crime. Saying you’re sorry doesn’t bring anyone back from the dead nor obviate the purpose of justice. > [@](#): > > It is this possibility of rehabilitation and repentance that is at the root of the Christian (and other) beliefs about the unique value of an individual. The Christian beliefs about the unique value of an individual can take a flying leap as far as I’m concerned. > [@](#): > > Given the experience that it is possible to manage society exceptionally well without judicial killing, advocates of it have a hard time claiming the defence of necessity available for such acts- it can be shown that it is not necessary, but a choice to inflict revenge and bodily punishment. Whether it’s ‘necessary’ by some strict utilitarian examination is irrelevant. What matters is that it was _just_. The entire _point_ of the justice system is to achieve retribution against those who have wronged the state and the people. > [@](#): > > I ahve worked with murderers, and child molesters and have never seen the slightest need to kill them, only the human need to prevent further damage and assist the recovery of the humanity of a person who has erred. People who have “erred” in such a way have no humanity worth recovering. > [@](#): > > Few polities with an advanced moral and legal structure still resort to mediaevalism. …says the guy living in a country with a heredity monarch and peerage, an established church which legislators are required to swear loyalty to the head of, government officials who issue rulings while wearing gowns and powdered wigs, anti-blasphemy laws, no constitutionally protected freedom of speech or religion, a legislature that can’t make it through an afternoon without a shouting match breaking out, which only _a few years ago_ decided to establish an independent supreme court not controlled by the nobility. > [@](#): > > I am proud to be separated from the USA that fails in this instance. Then maybe you shouldn’t be so concerned about how we conduct our affairs. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/587 "2014-07-24T09:57:37Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Look, you are obviously a ghoul who enjoys inflicting pain and terror on individuals. Your debating style is as warped as your moral compass. I am out of here with my morals intact. I will leave you to your swamp. I’m not the one flinging insults every other sentence and claiming to be morally superior. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/588 "2014-07-24T10:00:43Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > To correct the assertion that these have been isolated incidents… Alright, so that’s 12 incidents since, out of a total 1,266 executions during that period ([cite](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-year)), for a ‘botch’ rate of slightly less than 1%. Seems to me that they should have concluded from the evidence that there was an overwhelmingly slim chance of anything going wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/589 "2014-07-24T10:12:18Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > there is nobility in the worst criminal that is absent from those who inflict death and torture as part of a State response to behaviour. Just to make your position completely clear: in **Pjen** -land, torturing someone to death because it gives you a hard-on is more noble than “torturing” someone to death for being said serial killer? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/590 "2014-07-24T10:25:02Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Just to make your position completely clear: in **Pjen** -land, torturing someone to death because it gives you a hard-on is more noble than “torturing” someone to death for being said serial killer? Most crimes of violence are committed when the person is out of control either psycholoically, or chemically. They are committed because of a series of mislearned behaviours which go uncorrected and result in a gradually amplifying of deviant behaviour. As such they are despicable but only partially willed. Planning, carrying out and supporting judicial killing is a decision taken under no duress and for which the person is totally responsible. Both are open to rehabilitation. Interestingly (and causing me some guilty pleasure) is the recent finding that people who have engaged in judicial killing who are protected from the horror and responsibility whilst so employed are later suffering from severe PTSD like symptoms as they cease the role and reflect on the enormity of their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/591 "2014-07-24T10:27:28Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Most crimes of violence are committed when the person is out of control either psycholoically, or chemically. They are committed because of a series of mislearned behaviours which go uncorrected and result in a gradually amplifying of deviant behaviour. As such they are despicable but only partially willed. > > Planning, carrying out and supporting judicial killing is a decision taken under no duress and for which the person is totally responsible. > > Both are open to rehabilitation. > > Interestingly (and causing me some guilty pleasure) is the recent finding that people who have engaged in judicial killing who are protected from the horror and responsibility whilst so employed are later suffering from severe PTSD like symptoms as they cease the role and reflect on the enormity of their actions. So, is that a ‘yes’ or a ‘no’? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/592 "2014-07-24T10:45:52Z")
**Pjen** and **Smapti** , both of you back off on the personal attacks. Stick to the issues and leave your personalities out of it. = = = **Everyone** , it is explicitly against the rules of Great Debates [to say or imply that a poster is deriving sexual pleasure from a belief](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4749265#post4749265). Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/593 "2014-07-24T11:08:41Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **Everyone** , it is explicitly against the rules of Great Debates [to say or imply that a poster is deriving sexual pleasure from a belief](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4749265#post4749265). Knock it off. Since I was apparently unclear, I should clarify that I was referring to the motive of the hypothetical criminal and not **Pjen**. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/594 "2014-07-24T11:26:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because otherwise it would seem like you were just being disingenuous and opportunistic, and exploiting people’s knee jerk reactions to an unfortunate scenario in order to lobby against a legal and justified judicial implement that’s been practiced for thousands of years and which has been legally upheld in the courts time and again. Slavery was legal at one point, having been practiced for thousands of years and upheld in the courts time and time again. Sex discrimination was legal at one point, having been practiced for thousands of years and upheld in the courts time and time again. Both slavery and sex discrimination are in the Bible and in the Constitution. Times changed, we’ve moved on. The time has come for us to change and move on from capital punishment, like the rest of the industrial world. Imprisonment protects society from the convicted just as well as capital punishment, with the bonus of being able to undo mistakes in the judicial process. The torture murders committed by the states should only speed up our movement toward a more perfect union. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/595 "2014-07-24T11:56:08Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The time has come for us to change and move on from capital punishment, like the rest of the industrial world. I’m sorry, I didn’t realize that Japan, Israel, and China were not “industrialized”. > [@](#): > > Imprisonment protects society from the convicted just as well as capital punishment, with the bonus of being able to undo mistakes in the judicial process. The point of judicial punishment has never been to protect society. It has always been to attain justice against those that have wronged society. Some people have committed crimes so heinous that they do not deserve to live, even as guests of the state, and we already have such a protracted and lengthy appeals process that the only way a “mistake in the judicial process” could possibly occur is through sheer incompetence on the part of everyone involved over a period of decades. > [@](#): > > The torture murders committed by the states should only speed up our movement toward a more perfect union. Torture, as defined above, requires the deliberate intent to render pain. There is no such intent in judicial execution, therefore, it is not tortuer. Murder, as defined previously in the thread, is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Judicial execution is neither unlawful nor malicious, therefore it is not murder. In a more perfect union, people would not commit crimes worthy of execution. However, they do, and we should not pretend as if they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/596 "2014-07-24T12:16:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m sorry, I didn’t realize that Japan, Israel, and China were not “industrialized”. > > The point of judicial punishment has never been to protect society. It has always been to attain justice against those that have wronged society. Some people have committed crimes so heinous that they do not deserve to live, even as guests of the state, and we already have such a protracted and lengthy appeals process that the only way a “mistake in the judicial process” could possibly occur is through sheer incompetence on the part of everyone involved over a period of decades. > > Torture, as defined above, requires the deliberate intent to render pain. There is no such intent in judicial execution, therefore, it is not tortuer. > > Murder, as defined previously in the thread, is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Judicial execution is neither unlawful nor malicious, therefore it is not murder. > > In a more perfect union, people would not commit crimes worthy of execution. However, they do, and we should not pretend as if they don’t. Point by point- I should have said western industrial nations. Japan is an exception among the more developed countries. China is a fucking police state, do you seriously want to model the US after them? Israel executed one fucking guy, Adolf Eichmann, in modern history. I think you’re confusing “justice” with “vengence” We have executed hundreds, if not thousands, of innocents over the years. Killing someone is not justice, it is letting ourselves be ruled by raw animal instinct. We’re better than that. Presumably when an execution is carried out, it is done so with the knowledge of how much pain the method will cause the victim. If such a premeditated killing is done that inflicts pain and suffering, it is torture whether done by intent or incompetence. Lawful acts can indeed be malicious. Payday loans are legal in some places but are often malicious. Killing someone in such a way as to inflict pain and suffering may be legal but certainly is malicious, regardless of intent. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/597 "2014-07-24T12:27:34Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Point by point- I should have said western industrial nations. Japan is an exception among the more developed countries. China is a fucking police state, do you seriously want to model the US after them? Israel executed one fucking guy, Adolf Eichmann, in modern history. I believe I’m on record regarding my opinions of “police states”. > [@](#): > > I think you’re confusing “justice” with “vengence” We have executed hundreds, if not thousands, of innocents over the years. Killing someone is not justice, it is letting ourselves be ruled by raw animal instinct. We’re better than that. What is justice, if not the process by which wrongdoings are avenged? When you commit criminal murder, the means by which that wrongdoing is avenged is by the taking of your own life. Going on about “raw animal instinct” is a rather silly appeal to nature. We do _lots_ of things based on raw animal instinct - things like developing monogamous life partners and raising children. Would you insist that we should become “better than” such things as well? > [@](#): > > Presumably when an execution is carried out, it is done so with the knowledge of how much pain the method will cause the victim. If such a premeditated killing is done that inflicts pain and suffering, it is torture whether done by intent or incompetence. Not without changing the definition of the word it isn’t. > [@](#): > > Lawful acts can indeed be malicious. That makes about as much sense as saying that blue things can be green, or that round things can be triangular. > [@](#): > > Payday loans are legal in some places but are often malicious. And they can often be a lifesaver for someone who needs an influx of cash right away to deal with an emergency situation (e.g. car troubles, dental emergencies, a sick or dying pet), but lacks access to traditional credit. > [@](#): > > Killing someone in such a way as to inflict pain and suffering may be legal but certainly is malicious, regardless of intent. Which is why we go out of our way to make the execution as painless as possible. The fact that complications occur less than 1% of the time is not an argument against the 99+% of successful humane executions. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/598 "2014-07-24T13:14:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Why does this piece of subhuman waste deserve any more mercy than he gave his victims? This man’s life is of no value to the state or to the people, and frankly, he deserved to suffer. Sure, guys like this are some of the worst that humanity has to offer – but hopefully our justice system aspires to be more than a reflection of the worst of humanity. I think we should treat all criminals humanely. And that principle shouldn’t go out the window just because we’re particularly disgusted by his crime. Not that I can’t see the _appeal_ of eye-for-an-eye “justice”, but just because something is appealing to our vengeful natures doesn’t make it morally right. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/599 "2014-07-24T13:17:10Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > I think we should treat all criminals humanely. And that principle shouldn’t go out the window just because we’re particularly disgusted by his crime. Not that I can’t see the _appeal_ of eye-for-an-eye “justice”, but just because something is appealing to our vengeful natures doesn’t make it morally right. Putting a mad dog down _is_ humane. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/600 "2014-07-24T13:18:03Z")
I feel the need to add that the comparison to Rosa Parks in the OP makes no sense to me at all. Not just because it’s a comparison between a heroic person and a terrible person, but also because Rosa Parks did something active and deliberate to fight injustice, whereas these executed criminals did nothing but die in a horrible way. But I guess the thread has kind of moved on from that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=31)