# Will Clayton Locketts Torture be the Rosa Parks moment of the Campaign against judicial killing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339 "2014-04-30T05:47:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/61 "2014-04-30T11:02:26Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Heck, I’m mildly curious about the mindset that wants the death penalty but then exercises it in such a Three-Stoogian manner. Get some professional death experts on it, if you want your executions done with consistency and skill, rather than some clumsy inexperienced possibly-reluctant prison employees. As noted above, quiet euthanasia would be quite possible, but the state needs to make a theatre of it with displays to vengeful relatives and a vengeful public. All part of public policy to appease the mob. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/62 "2014-04-30T11:06:30Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > After 21 years his status will be reviewed. There is no way in hell he will be released, like your original message stated. No way in hell. A lot can change in Norwegian politics between now and 2033. But hey, it’s not like anyone was ever imprisoned for terrorist acts for 20 years and then got out of jail and became president or anything… > [@](#): > > You do realise that Norway is one of the wealthiest countries on earth, and leads the world in Human Development rankings year after year? The fact that Norwegian prisons are comfortable does not make them better than what the average Norwegian experiences. The average Norwegian still has to _work_ for their keep; they don’t get a private gym and state-subsidized Playstation games. > [@](#): > > He does not remain free to proselytise anything. He is behind bars, and as such his communication with the outside is severely restricted. Ahem; > [@](#): > > As of 26 July 2012, Anders Behring Breivik had received almost 600 letters in his prison cell. While in pre-trial detention, Breivik had been allowed access to a computer without Internet connection. Following his trial, the computer was taken away, and was replaced with an electric typewriter. All correspondence from Breivik therefore must be sent on paper, and the prison authorities monitor the content. The newspaper Verdens Gang reported on 26 July 2012 that Breivik planned to set up an organisation he called the Conservative Revolutionary Movement which he envisioned consisting of around 50 right-wing activists in Europe, as well as an organization for imprisoned right-wing activists. The newspaper writes that Breivik has written to, among others, Peter Mangs and Beate Zschäpe. Since the trial he has spent 8–10 hours per day writing. He has said that he wants to write three books: the first being his own account of the events on the day of the attacks, the second discussing the ideology underlying his actions, and a third on his visions for the future. He has also stated that he wants to study political science during his prison sojourn. Gee, a political radical using his prison time to write books about his plans for the future and to study political science. Why does that seem familiar? > [@](#): > > The fact that he has not been executed means that he has not become a martyr. I believe that’s the best possible outcome from a security point of view I’d rather have him as a martyr. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/63 "2014-04-30T11:09:16Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > In extreme circumstances such as that, it is a judgment call. But that does not in any way give moral sanction to killing someone two decades later as pure revenge and blood lust. > > You do understand nuance, don’t you? The important thing is that we recognize that there is no “absolute right to one’s own life”. The state can and _does_ have the authority to take lives under given circumstances; indeed, it _must_ have that ability in order to be able to function. I consider capital punishment to be a valid exercise of that power. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/64 "2014-04-30T11:14:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The important thing is that we recognize that there is no “absolute right to one’s own life”. The state can and _does_ have the authority to take lives under given circumstances; indeed, it _must_ have that ability in order to be able to function. I consider capital punishment to be a valid exercise of that power. The state may do so with an EXCUSE. The same as a citizen. The excuse of necessity or self defence is appropriate in hostage situations. In the same way that Self defence does not allow citizens to kill at will, the argument of necessity does not allow the state to kill at will in other circumstances. Of course if it wants to the state can do anything it wants, but that also applies to torture, labour camps, confiscation of property and garrsionaing troups, removing guns and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/65 "2014-04-30T11:22:57Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The state may do so with an EXCUSE. The same as a citizen. The excuse of necessity or self defence is appropriate in hostage situations. > > In the same way that Self defence does not allow citizens to kill at will, the argument of necessity does not allow the state to kill at will in other circumstances. And “this man is guilty of murder” is a solid excuse. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/66 "2014-04-30T11:27:41Z")
I think the most important aspect of this story is that Gov Mary Fallin is a criminal and Oklahoma is an outlaw state. The state was ordered by its supreme court to stay the executions so that the source of the drugs could be revealed. She decided to defy this lawful court order knowing that her fellow crime family members in the Oklahoma legislature would never impeach her for this. People get the government they deserve, it appears that Oklahomans deserve this lawless bitch for a governor. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/67 "2014-04-30T11:35:59Z")
Speaking as a physician, and strictly in a technical sense\*, I simply do not understand the problem that the states have in executing someone painlessly. Every day thousands upon thousands of people have general anesthesia and are put to sleep quickly and without causing them _any_ agitation, discomfort, etc. I, myself, have had general anesthetics over a dozen times (a long story) and each time, upon awakening, I was struck with how sudden and decisive my loss of consciousness was. Bottom line is that the executioners should simply follow a ‘typical’ recipe used by anaesthetists (but with a change in dose). And, please note, by definition the drugs constituting the above recipes’ ingredients are widely available. \*i.e. I am not necessarily ‘for’ or ‘against’ capital punishment ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/68 "2014-04-30T11:43:42Z")
I’m against the death penalty since it appears we kill a few too many innocent people, but comparing Lockett to Rosa Parks is an insult to Rosa Parks. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/69 "2014-04-30T11:44:46Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > I’m against the death penalty since it appears we kill a few too many innocent people, but comparing Lockett to Rosa Parks is an insult to Rosa Parks. Perhaps the John Brown of the death penalty abolition movement would be more apt. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/70 "2014-04-30T12:00:12Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Speaking as a physician, and strictly in a technical sense\*, I simply do not understand the problem that the states have in executing someone painlessly. > > Every day thousands upon thousands of people have general anesthesia and are put to sleep quickly and without causing them _any_ agitation, discomfort, etc. > > I, myself, have had general anesthetics over a dozen times (a long story) and each time, upon awakening, I was struck with how sudden and decisive my loss of consciousness was. > > Bottom line is that the executioners should simply follow a ‘typical’ recipe used by anaesthetists (but with a change in dose). > > And, please note, by definition the drugs constituting the above recipes’ ingredients are widely available. > > \*i.e. I am not necessarily ‘for’ or ‘against’ capital punishment I agree with your reasoning (I am a nurse with theatre (OR) and anaesthetics experience) and as I say, it is a need to see the person suffer the consequences (essentially blood lust) that requires the stupidity of the execution protocols. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/71 "2014-04-30T12:01:39Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > I’m against the death penalty since it appears we kill a few too many innocent people, but comparing Lockett to Rosa Parks is an insult to Rosa Parks. Rosa Parks stood up against highly distasteful daily discrimination. Current Judicial Killing victims and their lawyers are standing up against immoral killings. Differences and similarities. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/72 "2014-04-30T12:02:46Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I think the most important aspect of this story is that Gov Mary Fallin is a criminal and Oklahoma is an outlaw state. The state was ordered by its supreme court to stay the executions so that the source of the drugs could be revealed. She decided to defy this lawful court order knowing that her fellow crime family members in the Oklahoma legislature would never impeach her for this. People get the government they deserve, it appears that Oklahomans deserve this lawless bitch for a governor. So true! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/73 "2014-04-30T12:04:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And “this man is guilty of murder” is a solid excuse. In the USA and Japan and many third world despots. In the civilised world it is not. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/74 "2014-04-30T12:06:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And “this man is guilty of murder” is a solid excuse. One of the safety features of the European Convention on Human Rights is the fact that the judiciary is so spread- one judge from each country. No manipulation possible. No political control. A real balance of powers. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/75 "2014-04-30T12:10:04Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > In the USA and Japan and many third world despots. In the civilised world it is not. It’s interesting how you keep harping on about how Europe is so much more “civilized” than the US when you said this a few posts ago; > [@Pjen](#): > > Of course if it wants to the state can do anything it wants, but that also applies to torture, labour camps, confiscation of property and garrsionaing troups, removing guns and so on. We don’t remove guns in America, like those power-abusing despots in “the civilized world”. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/76 "2014-04-30T12:11:14Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Current Judicial Killing victims and their lawyers are standing up against immoral killings. There’s nothing immoral about it. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/77 "2014-04-30T12:13:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It’s interesting how you keep harping on about how Europe is so much more “civilized” than the US when you said this a few posts ago; > > We don’t remove guns in America, like those power-abusing despots in “the civilized world”. I placed the Bill of Rights amendments in as a goad! Most of Europe has pretty free access to guns, just that our citizens tend not to use them to kill indiscrimately. I believe there are more guns per head in Switzerland, than in the US, but there death by stupidity rate is minimal. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/78 "2014-04-30T12:14:33Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I agree with your reasoning (I am a nurse with theatre (OR) and anaesthetics experience) and as I say, it is a need to see the person suffer the consequences (essentially blood lust) that requires the stupidity of the execution protocols. Of course, it’s nearly impossible to find a licensed anesthesiologist to oversee an execution because they fear losing their livelihood thanks to campaigns by anti-death penalty types. People who oppose capital punishment are _directly responsible_ for its being less humane than it needs to be. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/79 "2014-04-30T12:15:46Z")
I must stand corrected. [constitutional crisis averted.](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/30/us/oklahoma-executions.html) > [@](#): > > On April 21, the Supreme Court said that to avoid a miscarriage of justice, it would delay the executions until it had time to resolve the secrecy matter. > The next day, Ms. Fallin, a Republican, said the Supreme Court had overstepped its powers, and she directed officials to carry out both executions on April 29. An outraged legislator, Representative Mike Christian, said he would seek to impeach the justices, who were already under fire from conservative legislators for striking down laws the court deemed unconstitutional. > A constitutional crisis appeared to be brewing. But last Wednesday, the Supreme Court announced a decision on the secrecy issue — overturning the lower court and declaring that the executions could proceed. I had read earlier stories that had omitted the last minute reveral by the court. So the governor is not lawless. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/80 "2014-04-30T12:16:43Z")
Access to guns is not necessarily a human right. It is written into the US Constitution for reasons to do with eighteenth century politics and after the health care system chosen there is the greatest killer of children because of the indiscriminate access to guns. Only red-necks in the US see access to guns as a constitutional right- another matter that excludes the US from the rest of the Western world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=5)