# Will Clayton Locketts Torture be the Rosa Parks moment of the Campaign against judicial killing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339 "2014-04-30T05:47:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/81 "2014-04-30T12:19:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > There’s nothing immoral about it. On what do you base your claim for it not being immoral. On my side I can count every western democracy save the US and Japan, the Catholic Church, the Orthodox church (Greek and Roman), the Episcopal Church, The UN declaration on human rights, The European Convention on Human Rights. And on your side of the argument… ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/82 "2014-04-30T12:20:57Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I must stand corrected. [constitutional crisis averted.](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/30/us/oklahoma-executions.html) > > I had read earlier stories that had omitted the last minute reveral by the court. So the governor is not lawless. Only with the governor’s tanks on its lawn- hardly rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/83 "2014-04-30T12:22:17Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Only with the governor’s tanks on its lawn- hardly rule of law. Of course, she was prepared to defy the earlier court order. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/84 "2014-04-30T12:28:10Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > On what do you base your claim for it not being immoral. On what do you base your claim for it being uncivilized? > [@](#): > > On my side I can count every western democracy save the US and Japan, the Catholic Church, the Orthodox church (Greek and Roman), the Episcopal Church, The UN declaration on human rights, The European Convention on Human Rights. - I do not consider the opinions of the Catholic church (or any other) to have any weight or authority. - When did [Taiwan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Taiwan), [Singapore](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_singapore), and [India](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_india) cease to be “western democracies”? And what happened to “this isn’t a popularity contest” like you said earlier? - The UN Declaration of Human Rights does not prohibit capital punishment. > [@](#): > > And on your side of the argument… Morality is subjective and subject to the whims of the people. The people in this country have decided that capital punishment is moral; therefore, it is moral. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/85 "2014-04-30T12:32:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Of course, it’s nearly impossible to find a licensed anesthesiologist to oversee an execution because they fear losing their livelihood thanks to campaigns by anti-death penalty types. > > People who oppose capital punishment are _directly responsible_ for its being less humane than it needs to be. I’m pretty sure that it’s the people who actually perform it who are _directly_ responsible. The opponents are, obviously, at worst indirectly responsible, as nothing they do has led to anyone killing anyone else in any way whatsoever. Of course, no government should be killing people under any circumstances anyway. _No-one_ should be killing anyone except to defend against an imminent threat to themselves, and no prisoner can be that to a government. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/86 "2014-04-30T12:35:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m pretty sure that it’s the people who actually perform it who are directly responsible. The opponents are, obviously, at worst indirectly responsible, as nothing they do has led to anyone killing anyone else in any way whatsoever. If the state hadn’t been unable to acquire the established and humane execution chemicals, they would have had no need to use an untested compound and this execution would likely have gone off without a hitch. The anti-death-penalty movement is therefore directly responsible for this outcome, which I’m sure they’re quite happy about since it “proves” that lethal injection is inhumane. > [@](#): > > Of course, no government should be killing people under any circumstances anyway. _No-one_ should be killing anyone except to defend against an imminent threat to themselves, and no prisoner can be that to a government. So, again, if a man is holding a gun to a child’s head, you’re saying that noone has any right to shoot him? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/87 "2014-04-30T12:37:39Z")
Since it hasn’t been posted yet and is a new article: **[At least 4 percent of those sent to death row in US are innocent, researchers say](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2014/0428/At-least-4-percent-of-those-sent-to-death-row-in-US-are-innocent-researchers-say)** > [@](#): > > “Most death-sentenced defendants are removed from death row and resentenced to life imprisonment, after which the likelihood of exoneration drops sharply,” the authors found. The 4.1 percent figure, therefore, “is a conservative estimate of the proportion of false conviction among death sentences in the United States,” they concluded. But hey! At least the victim’s families will still be getting their vengeance even if it’s not the right person, right? That’s all that matters in this work-a-day world is that the blood god gets its sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/88 "2014-04-30T12:38:28Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > **[At least 4 percent of those sent to death row in US are innocent, researchers say](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2014/0428/At-least-4-percent-of-those-sent-to-death-row-in-US-are-innocent-researchers-say)** So that means 96% of them are guilty? Would that the rest of the government could achieve such a lofty success rate. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/89 "2014-04-30T12:45:15Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If the state hadn’t been unable to acquire the established and humane execution chemicals, they would have had no need to use an untested compound and this execution would likely have gone off without a hitch. The anti-death-penalty movement is therefore directly responsible for this outcome, which I’m sure they’re quite happy about since it “proves” that lethal injection is inhumane. No, that’s indirect. No-one was forced to use any chemicals to kill anyone. > [@](#): > > So, again, if a man is holding a gun to a child’s head, you’re saying that noone has any right to shoot him? You are right here, I should have said an imminent threat to themselves or others. The imminence being vitally important, though, as it means that in that circumstance, even if there’s another solution than killing there isn’t time to think of it. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/90 "2014-04-30T12:45:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So that means 96% of them are guilty? Would that the rest of the government could achieve such a lofty success rate. If 4% of airplanes crashed nobody would fly. If a drug caused fatalities in 4% of patients it wouldn’t be allowed on the market. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/91 "2014-04-30T12:46:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If the state hadn’t been unable to acquire the established and humane execution chemicals, they would have had no need to use an untested compound and this execution would likely have gone off without a hitch. The anti-death-penalty movement is therefore directly responsible for this outcome, which I’m sure they’re quite happy about since it “proves” that lethal injection is inhumane. “If only I could have bought a gun to kill my neighbour, I wouldn’t have had to stab him to death with a knife. Gun laws are responsible for my neighbour’s slow death”. See the similarity? > [@Smapti](#): > > So, again, if a man is holding a gun to a child’s head, you’re saying that noone has any right to shoot him? You seem to have trouble understanding actions **before** a crime and **after** a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/92 "2014-04-30T12:49:22Z")
As an aside, I’ve never understood why conservatives support the death penalty… It would seem to be giving the government an absolutely unnecessary power that could be used against them, if they’re unlucky enough to be in the 4%. Seems to be the antithesis of conservatism to me. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/93 "2014-04-30T12:49:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, that’s indirect. No-one was forced to use any chemicals to kill anyone. He was going to be executed either way. The anti-death-penalty people embarked on a course of action which resulted in his death being less humane than it needed to be. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/94 "2014-04-30T12:50:24Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > You seem to have trouble understanding actions **before** a crime and **after** a crime. If killing someone during the commission of a crime is justified, then killing them afterwards is also justified. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/95 "2014-04-30T12:51:25Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If 4% of airplanes crashed nobody would fly. If a drug caused fatalities in 4% of patients it wouldn’t be allowed on the market. If 4% of airplanes crashed, we’d build safer airplanes rather than ban air travel. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/96 "2014-04-30T12:52:16Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > buy them a beer and a steak diner As long as it’s not over $15. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/97 "2014-04-30T12:55:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If the state hadn’t been unable to acquire the established and humane execution chemicals, they would have had no need to use an untested compound and this execution would likely have gone off without a hitch. Need? They didn’t “need” to do anything. They “chose” to go forward with an execution knowing full well that they did not have a reliable way to perform the execution. The fact that the state could not acquire the appropriate chemicals is none of MY concern. Nor are any producers of those chemicals required to supply product to anyone, it’s called freedom. Do you hate freedom? You’d prefer that the state be able to command people to provide them with materials against their will? Command people, like anesthesiologists, to perform executions when they do not wish to? If the state wants to perform an execution and doesn’t have chemicals, pass a law that allows some other way. Guillotine, hanging, shooting, electrocution. Unfortunately, it may delay the execution, which can’t be allowed to happen. Which highlights the primary reason why the death penalty needs to be retired. Executions are political, prosecutors push for them to advance their careers, governors push for them because they don’t want to be “soft on crime”. People in power are too invested in making sure the execution happens, that leads to mistakes, and mistakes in the death penalty result in innocent people being put to death. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/98 "2014-04-30T12:56:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If killing someone during the commission of a crime is justified, then killing them afterwards is also justified. No. Killing someone before may actually prevent the commission of the crime. Killing someone afterwards may not. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/99 "2014-04-30T12:58:12Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Need? They didn’t “need” to do anything. They “chose” to go forward with an execution knowing full well that they did not have a reliable way to perform the execution. The man had been sentenced to die; as such, they had a legal obligation to execute him. Suddenly you’re OK with the state ignoring the courts? > [@](#): > > The fact that the state could not acquire the appropriate chemicals is none of MY concern. Nor are any producers of those chemicals required to supply product to anyone, it’s called freedom. Do you hate freedom? You’d prefer that the state be able to command people to provide them with materials against their will? Command people, like anesthesiologists, to perform executions when they do not wish to? Yes, for the same reason I don’t believe pharmacies have the right to refuse to fill prescriptions for birth control. > [@](#): > > If the state wants to perform an execution and doesn’t have chemicals, pass a law that allows some other way. Guillotine, hanging, shooting, electrocution. Fine by me. > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, it may delay the execution, which can’t be allowed to happen. Which highlights the primary reason why the death penalty needs to be retired. Executions are political, prosecutors push for them to advance their careers, governors push for them because they don’t want to be “soft on crime”. People in power are too invested in making sure the execution happens, that leads to mistakes, and mistakes in the death penalty result in innocent people being put to death. And they’re the greatest heroes of all. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/100 "2014-04-30T12:59:22Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > No. Killing someone before may actually prevent the commission of the crime. Killing someone afterwards may not. It prevents them from ever being able to commit the same crime again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=6)