# Will Clayton Locketts Torture be the Rosa Parks moment of the Campaign against judicial killing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339 "2014-04-30T05:47:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/101 "2014-04-30T13:00:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It prevents them from ever being able to commit the same crime again. So does locking them up securely forever. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/102 "2014-04-30T13:00:47Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Since it hasn’t been posted yet and is a new article: > > **[At least 4 percent of those sent to death row in US are innocent, researchers say](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2014/0428/At-least-4-percent-of-those-sent-to-death-row-in-US-are-innocent-researchers-say)** How many were actually executed, and which ones? And if they were innocent, why weren’t they released instead of being resentenced to life? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/103 "2014-04-30T13:01:38Z")
I wish I could be so cavalier about killing innocent people. But here I am, somehow hung up on “justice” and facts. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/104 "2014-04-30T13:01:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It prevents them from ever being able to commit the same crime again. Yes, but that’s a big hypothetical. You don’t **know** that a criminal will commit the same crime again. Your comparison between ex-ante and ex-post executions is simply wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/105 "2014-04-30T13:02:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So does locking them up securely forever. Not necessarily. Prisoners escape. They commit crimes against their fellow prisoners. Time passes and popular sentiment changes and they get out on “good behavior”. Capital punishment is the only form of judicial discipline with a 0% recidivism rate. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/106 "2014-04-30T13:03:34Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Yes, but that’s a big hypothetical. You don’t **know** that a criminal will commit the same crime again. Your comparison between ex-ante and ex-post executions is simply wrong. Past behavior tends to be a very strong indicator of future behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/107 "2014-04-30T13:05:35Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > I wish I could be so cavalier about killing innocent people. But here I am, somehow hung up on “justice” and facts. I take it very seriously. I don’t want any innocent people to be executed. Every innocent person who is executed is a true patriot giving his or her life for his country. That’s why I want our justice system improved, better access to good legal counsel for everyone, and stiff penalties against prosecutors who get innocents incarcerated. I just don’t think the baby needs to be thrown out with the bathwater. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/108 "2014-04-30T13:06:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How many were actually executed, and which ones? The article lists one, which is one too many in my opinion, given that there are no actual advantages to execution rather than life imprisonment. It’s more expensive, and has no effect on deterrent values. I don’t consider giving satisfaction to bloodthirsty savages to be an advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/109 "2014-04-30T13:07:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And they’re the greatest heroes of all. Mock the concept if you want, but people (almost certainly) have been executed who never committed the crime they were convicted of. You actually seem to be OK with 4% of executions being performed on people who didn’t commit the crime, and that’s a rather disturbing thought. Shodan, you’re not going to find many proven incorrect executions, because the efforts to exonerate people on Death Row tend to fizzle out once the guy is dead. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/110 "2014-04-30T13:09:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If killing someone during the commission of a crime is justified, then killing them afterwards is also justified. Do you really not understand the difference? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/111 "2014-04-30T13:10:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Not necessarily. Prisoners escape. They commit crimes against their fellow prisoners. Time passes and popular sentiment changes and they get out on “good behavior”. Capital punishment is the only form of judicial discipline with a 0% recidivism rate. That’s why I said “securely” – a well run, secure prison will not have escapes or serious prisoner-on-prisoner crimes (which means that most prisons in the US are probably not well run by this definition). I’ll accept that if preventing recidivism is the only goal, then the death penalty is the best option. And this goes for any crime, from theft to murder. I actually don’t have a problem with executing murderers or even rapists. I oppose the death penalty because I think the risk of executing a single innocent man outweighs any benefits (which I believe are miniscule) of the death penalty over life-imprisonment. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/112 "2014-04-30T13:12:13Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Mock the concept if you want, but people (almost certainly) have been executed who never committed the crime they were convicted of. You actually seem to be OK with 4% of executions being performed on people who didn’t commit the crime, and that’s a rather disturbing thought. All wars have their collateral damage. I consider 4% to be within the realm of “acceptable losses”. Does that mean I’m “OK” with innocent people being executed? No - but that means that what I want is a system that doesn’t execute anyone unless there is absolutely no question about their guilt, not that I want to let all the guilty people off the hook for fear that some hypothetical person might bumble through the legal system for 20 years without ever having a competent lawyer. > [@](#): > > Shodan, you’re not going to find many proven incorrect executions, because the efforts to exonerate people on Death Row tend to fizzle out once the guy is dead. “We can’t prove a single case of it happening, but we know it must be true.” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/113 "2014-04-30T13:13:21Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Do you really not understand the difference? I don’t acknowledge that there is one. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/114 "2014-04-30T13:17:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No - but that means that what I want is a system that doesn’t execute anyone unless there is absolutely no question about their guilt, not that I want to let all the guilty people off the hook for fear that some hypothetical person might bumble through the legal system for 20 years without ever having a competent lawyer. Well, you don’t fucking have a system where we don’t execute someone unless there is no question about their guilt because we know that 4% of those executed aren’t guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/115 "2014-04-30T13:23:51Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Well, you don’t fucking have a system where we don’t execute someone unless there is no question about their guilt because we know that 4% of those executed aren’t guilty. We know no such thing. We know that some researchers _claim_ based on statistical analysis (_not_ on actual instances of wrongful execution) that 4% of people on death row (_not_ 4% of people executed) are innocent. And they had to go back to 1973 to arrive at that number - to a time before DNA profiling and modern forensic science. And they left out the last ten years when those sciences have become better than ever. We don’t have a system where we don’t execute someone unless there is no question about their guilt? Then let us **build one.** ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/116 "2014-04-30T13:26:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > We don’t have a system where we don’t execute someone unless there is no question about their guilt? Then let us **build one.** That’s trivially easy, in fact all civilised countries have managed to do so. Don’t fucking execute people. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/117 "2014-04-30T13:27:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s trivially easy, in fact all civilised countries have managed to do so. > > Don’t fucking execute people. Not executing anyone would be an impediment to the goal of executing the guilty. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/118 "2014-04-30T13:29:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > We know no such thing. We know that some researchers _claim_ based on statistical analysis (_not_ on actual instances of wrongful execution) that 4% of people on death row (_not_ 4% of people executed) are innocent. And they had to go back to 1973 to arrive at that number - to a time before DNA profiling and modern forensic science. And they left out the last ten years when those sciences have become better than ever. > > We don’t have a system where we don’t execute someone unless there is no question about their guilt? Then let us **build one.** You can’t build infallible juries, nor can you rid police departments of crooked cops, the courts of crooked or incompetent judges, or defendants to have competent legal counsel. Witnesses will lie and juries will believe what they want to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/119 "2014-04-30T13:30:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > We don’t have a system where we don’t execute someone unless there is no question about their guilt? Then let us **build one.** Good idea. And until you’re absolutely certain you’ve built one, how about you put the executions on hold? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/120 "2014-04-30T13:30:28Z")
Firstly this was not torture, it was a botched execution. Secondly to link this animal in any way to Rosa Parks is despicable. And no, this won’t make any difference at all to the debate on the death penalty. Those against it will be the only people to mourn this guy’s passing and the manner of it. Those for it will say that his suffering was nothing compared to that of his victim. And they would be right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=7)