# Will Clayton Locketts Torture be the Rosa Parks moment of the Campaign against judicial killing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339 "2014-04-30T05:47:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/121 "2014-04-30T13:31:39Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > You can’t build infallible juries, nor can you rid police departments of crooked cops, the courts of crooked or incompetent judges, or defendants to have competent legal counsel. Witnesses will lie and juries will believe what they want to believe. Then I guess we may as well abolish the justice system altogether since we can never know whether anyone is guilty of anything. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/122 "2014-04-30T13:32:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then I guess we may as well abolish the justice system altogether since we can never know whether anyone is guilty of anything. No, we don’t impose irreversible punishments. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/123 "2014-04-30T13:32:51Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Good idea. And until you’re absolutely certain you’ve built one, how about you put the executions on hold? The added surety is not worth allowing some people to continue to draw breath in the meantime. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/124 "2014-04-30T13:33:52Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No, we don’t impose irreversible punishments. A death sentence is fully reversible up to the point where there is no further mechanism by which the convicted can be shown to be innocent. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/125 "2014-04-30T13:37:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A death sentence is fully reversible up to the point where there is no further mechanism by which the convicted can be shown to be innocent. No, it might be that evidence surfaces years after the conviction. If sentenced to life, you let the wrongly convicted man go. If you’ve already executed him, there is no remedy available. Perhaps you need to look into why it’s so important to you to kill people. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/126 "2014-04-30T13:39:38Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > That is your moral compass. The only States that agree with you are Japan and China, Iran, Iraq, much of Africa, and the rest of the developing and undeveloped world. > > It is absolutely banned in Europe by constitutional decision. Sounds to me like a majority is for it. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/127 "2014-04-30T13:40:23Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Firstly this was not torture, it was a botched execution. > > Secondly to link this animal in any way to Rosa Parks is despicable. > > And no, this won’t make any difference at all to the debate on the death penalty. Those against it will be the only people to mourn this guy’s passing and the manner of it. Those for it will say that his suffering was nothing compared to that of his victim. And they would be right. It was avoidable state induced pain. Torture in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/128 "2014-04-30T13:42:05Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > Sounds to me like a majority is for it. Majority for what? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/129 "2014-04-30T13:43:07Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No, it might be that evidence surfaces years after the conviction. If sentenced to life, you let the wrongly convicted man go. If you’ve already executed him, there is no remedy available. Remedy: execute the people responsible for executing an innocent man. > [@](#): > > Perhaps you need to look into why it’s so important to you to kill people. Because they’re not worth keeping alive, and just locking them up and letting them die of thirst would be cruel. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/130 "2014-04-30T13:43:18Z")
It is falling out of favour in the USA: Pew Poll Shows Sharp Drop in Death Penalty Support (2/2014). Support for the death penalty has fallen sharply by 23 percentage points since 1996, reaching its lowest level in almost two decades, according to a recent poll by the Pew Research Center. The 2013 poll also found a 10 point drop in just the last 2 years in respondents who say they “strongly favor” the death penalty, from 28% to 18%. The percentage of Americans who say they oppose the death penalty has risen to 37%. In 2011, Pew asked respondents about the reasons behind their views on the death penalty, finding that the top two reasons for opposition to capital punishment were the imperfect nature of the justice system and a belief that the death penalty is immoral. The drop in public support coincides with an overall decline in use of the death penalty during the same time period, with both death sentences and executions falling dramatically since the 1990s. Six states have repealed the death penalty in the last six years, and three governors have recently imposed moratoriums on executions. (M. Lipka, “Support for death penalty drops among Americans,” Pew Research Center, February 12, 2014). > **[National Polls and Studies](https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/facts-and-research/public-opinion-polls/national-polls-and-studies)** > > The Death Penalty Information Center is a non-profit organization serving the media and the public with analysis and information about capital punishment. Founded in 1990, the Center promotes informed discussion of the death penalty by preparing... [![](https://dpic-cdn.org/production/images/legacy/PewPoll.png) ](https://dpic-cdn.org/production/images/legacy/PewPoll.png) ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/131 "2014-04-30T13:44:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Remedy: execute the people responsible for executing an innocent man. > > Because they’re not worth keeping alive, and just locking them up and letting them die of thirst would be cruel. Morally reprehensible and just getting a little silly. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/132 "2014-04-30T13:47:56Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Morally reprehensible and just getting a little silly. I don’t see how it’s morally reprehensible. If you fail in your job so horribly that you get an innocent man executed, then the same sentence you wrongly foisted on him is justly delivered to you. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/133 "2014-04-30T13:49:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because they’re not worth keeping alive, and just locking them up and letting them die of thirst would be cruel. If you believe that the only two options are executing and letting them die of thirst then perhaps you need to expand your thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/134 "2014-04-30T13:49:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How many were actually executed, and which ones? And if they were innocent, why weren’t they released instead of being resentenced to life? > > Regards, > Shodan There are many that WERE released. 144 such cases between 1973 and March 2014 > **[Description of Innocence Cases | Death Penalty Information Center](https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/policy/innocence/description-of-innocence-cases)** > > The Death Penalty Information Center (DPI) is a national non-profit organization whose mission is to serve the media, policymakers, and the general public… ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/135 "2014-04-30T13:50:34Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s trivially easy, in fact all civilised countries have managed to do so. > > Don’t fucking execute people. Heated debate! I was going to respond with an expletive, but since this is GD I will just take exception to the fact that you think the US, Japan, China, India, Taiwan, etc… aren’t civilized. By the way, how do you feel about abortion? Pro-choice? Pro-life? Inquiring minds want to know… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/136 "2014-04-30T13:53:36Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > There are many that WERE released. 144 such cases between 1973 and March 2014 > [http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-list-those-freed-death-row](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-list-those-freed-death-row) So the system works, then. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/137 "2014-04-30T13:54:36Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If you believe that the only two options are executing and letting them die of thirst then perhaps you need to expand your thinking. They need to die somehow. I’m open to suggestions. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/138 "2014-04-30T13:54:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t see how it’s morally reprehensible. If you fail in your job so horribly that you get an innocent man executed, then the same sentence you wrongly foisted on him is justly delivered to you. We should also extend that to those who support the execution of people without certainty of guilt, then - and make no mistake, it’s impossible to be certain of guilt. Beyond reasonable doubt is an extremely high standard, probably the highest achievable, but is not sufficient to impose irreversible punishment, as it is not certain. We don’t keep people alive who we believe are guilty for their sake. We keep them alive for the sake of the rest of us, those who are innocent, both to protect us from the possibility of injustice and to prevent us being complicit in unnecessary killing. The government is the people and so forth, so if the government kills someone it is you or I doing it (or because as far as I know we’re in different countries). I don’t wish to kill people when there’s another realistic option - and jailing someone for life is perfectly realistic. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/139 "2014-04-30T13:55:57Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > They need to die somehow. I’m open to suggestions. They will. We all will. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339/140 "2014-04-30T13:57:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > They will. We all will. I meant now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-clayton-locketts-torture-be-the-rosa-parks-moment-of-the-campaign-against-judicial-killing/687339.md?page=8)